Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Leung Shueng note for those who haven’t heard it. According to Ken, he use to scold his students by saying, “Just using my Choy Li Fut, I can defeat any of your broken Wing Chun.” And history repeats itself…
Touché. I, for one, have plenty of work to do on my own broken Wing Chun.
Thanks for return and substance to the Leung Sheung part of the thread, and for the pearls as well.
Regards,
Rene- it’s tough enough to get a decent discussion going on lists.
And one chooses ones own words. But chest beating somewhat trivilaizes what was being said and helps close the discussion
and it contributes at least incrementally to the deterioration to the same old stuff.
Think of the trivilization of pressure on the chest etc being used
for testing rooting and it being characterised similarly.
joy
Joy - I agree, but not only about my choice of words, but about the actions precipitating them. We can discuss the greatness of a person with trying to make anyone else seem less.
Anyway, Leung Sheung was and is the topic, no one else, not me, not you, and not the chest beaters 
Hi Alan,
Have we met? I am horible with names.
Anyways, I have seen Ken mimic several styles. I have forgotten which, but one was Choy Lif Fut and I think the others were Dragon and Bak Mei. I have not seen him mimic Hung Gar. He has a VERY good eye and seems to understand body motion very well. However, he once spoke about mimicing other styles, though that wasn’t the nature of the talk. Ben Der wanted to show how wing chun would work against his white crane…but Ken didn’t think that was an apporpriate test since Ben only knew a little white crane and whatever gained from the expereince would not be how a good white crane person would fight like. The equivalent of a novice wing chun guy going up against Royce Graice. Whatever he does would not be the same as Ken, Ben, or whoever doing so.
As far as Leung Sheung, he was quite profecint in Choy Li Fut, Bak Mei, and I beleive Dragon Style as well. Apparently he would occasionally feed some of these drills to the students, probably were Ken picked up some of them.
Tom
Hi Tom,
Have we met? I am horible with names.
I don’t think we have. I’m sure it’ll happen sooner or later in the future =)
Anyways, I have seen Ken mimic several styles. I have forgotten which, but one was Choy Lif Fut and I think the others were Dragon and Bak Mei. I have not seen him mimic Hung Gar. He has a VERY good eye and seems to understand body motion very well. However, he once spoke about mimicing other styles, though that wasn’t the nature of the talk. Ben Der wanted to show how wing chun would work against his white crane…but Ken didn’t think that was an apporpriate test since Ben only knew a little white crane and whatever gained from the expereince would not be how a good white crane person would fight like. The equivalent of a novice wing chun guy going up against Royce Graice. Whatever he does would not be the same as Ken, Ben, or whoever doing so.
That is definitely true, but the point was whether or not skill in one art would carry over when you learn a new art. If Ken and I were to both drop Wing Chun and take up Choy Li Fut together, I have no doubt that he would still be able to kick my ass, using just Choy Li Fut. Following the same line of reasoning, Leung Sheung with his level of skill in Choy Li Fut and Dragon style, would probably do better when learning Wing Chun in comparison with someone with no prior martial arts experience. Although this is of course not neccessarily true for all people.
Regards,
Alan
I do remember Ken speaking of his teacher Leung Sheung and how he (Leung Sheung) would use Choy Li Fut to attack and break through his students Wing Chun. Then he would show them how to deal with those attacks.
My sifu, Ben Der did study White Crane for a while before he met Ken. This was during the time after he left Hong Kong where he had studied with Yip Man as a teenager and then left for the US to live. He found that during his study of White Crane that the Wing Chun he had learned from Yip Man was able to deal with White Crane in many respects.
He subsequently met Ken, Ken and he sparred, whereupon Ken wiped the floor with him and he became Ken’s student. So while Yip Man opened Ben’s hands, Ben considers Ken to be his sifu given the decades he has spent learning with him. He also traveled back to Hong Kong where he was introduced to Leung Sheung by Ken.
There are also a lot of fun stories about Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu training in the old days when they were living with Yip Man. More on that when I have more time to post.
Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
That is definitely true, but the point was whether or not skill in one art would carry over when you learn a new art. If Ken and I were to both drop Wing Chun and take up Choy Li Fut together, I have no doubt that he would still be able to kick my ass, using just Choy Li Fut. Following the same line of reasoning, Leung Sheung with his level of skill in Choy Li Fut and Dragon style, would probably do better when learning Wing Chun in comparison with someone with no prior martial arts experience. Although this is of course not neccessarily true for all people.
I would have to agree. A solid understanding of a) movement and b) general fighting principles are transferable skills.
OTOH, I think that for most mere mortals, eliminating previous patterns of movement to internalize new ones requires tremendous drive and commitment. There are always exceptions, but those appear to be either the naturally gifted, or those who have transcended into a certain place of general and refined excellence. I guarantee I am not one of the exceptions, LOL.
Regards,
Hi Alan (You seem to have outed yourself in this thread.) 
Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
That is definitely true, but the point was whether or not skill in one art would carry over when you learn a new art.
Skill in some other MAs would not make one better at Wing Chun IMO, but if one is good at other MAs, then it might be a predictor of eventual Wing Chun capacity.
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If Ken and I were to both drop Wing Chun and take up Choy Li Fut…
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Funny how Tom wanted to talk about Leung Sheung, then changed the subject to Ken again. This is justified though as Ken is a mirror of Leung Sheung training.
Since Ken spent over ten years studying with Leung Sheung, Ken is a font of information on the man. I enjoy hearing the anecdotes and Kuen Kuit ascribed to Leung Sheung from Ken as well as other LS’ students. Leung Sheung was a patient and kindly teacher from all I’ve heard. Obviously, he and Yip Man shared a very close relationship.
When Yip Man was asked to speak at many of the clan’s get-togethers, Yip would invariably hand the task to Leung Sheung, saying that LS could speak for him, which is representational of the closeness of approach of the two in the early HK years. If anyone wants support for this statement, Ken Chung, Jack Ling, and Siu Wong have all confirmed this.
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I have no doubt that he would still be able to kick my ass, using just Choy Li Fut.
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I have no doubt of it either. But, there is no separating Wing Chun from the man. Ken brings to fighting his unmatched horse, positioning, sensitivity, and timing, all of which he teaches us. Sadly, there are no shortcuts. 
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Following the same line of reasoning, Leung Sheung with his level of skill in Choy Li Fut and Dragon style, would probably do better when learning Wing Chun in comparison with someone with no prior martial arts experience. Although this is of course not neccessarily true for all people.
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I think that other Kung Fu styles would have to be unlearned, old habits die hard. Again though, by proven athletic and mental prowess shown in other arts, this could predict success over time in Wing Chun Kuen. I don’t think that the other arts mattered in the long run. Many attributes of other styles are a hindrance to learning Wing Chun.
David, I look forward with anticipation for your further posts regarding our Sigung’s teacher, Leung Sheung. 
One last point is that while we (Ken’s students) know Leung Sheung through our teacher, Leung Sheung’s own greatness was the result of Yip Man’s tutelage. Any tribute to Leung Sheung should include acknowledgement of the debt we owe to Yip. Obviously, though, Yip Man was a very complicated person and diffident teacher, who shared his unmatched Wing Chun knowledge only reluctantly with most of his students.
Regards,
Hi all,
John- excellent post. I think much is owed to Yip Man for being a good teacher (when it came to certain people) and to Leung Sheung for being a good student. Leung Sheung, I think, had the benifit of wisdom and age in addition to martial experience. You mentioned that we would have to spend a lot of time unlearning previous skills, I think Leung Sheung did a great job at it.
Actually I don’t mind speaking of Ken, I just wanted the bickering to stop. LOL. I have some access to Ken and his students, so I consider those stories second priority to Leung Sheung. I don’t often get to hear stuff about him. Besides, some people don’t appriciate what Ken has to offer dispite those same people gushing over others they have never met. I suppose if TST students were here, the same people would argue against his skills too. LOL
Alan- I think it is the person that makes a good martial artist. Ken is such a person and would have been good at what ever art he wished. Heck, his guitar playing probably would have been as good had he not found Leung Sheung. LOL. I look in my current class and note that some people get it while others don’t. There is a such thing as a “natural” I think. I think Ken is as close as one can get.
I think there are many skills that are compatible if not even required among different martial arts. Since I don’t have access to Wing Chun at the moment, I have been passing the time in Hung Gar. Hey, stop shouting “heathen” at me!!! You too John! But I do find many traits and attributes are similar for each style. I can reflect on many of the words of Ken that I feel help my Hung Gar. Yes it is VERY different in most aspects, but I think there are a lot of similarites between different arts. I think some one with an open mind can easily learn a new art. For those of you computer folks, how many have ever confused C++ with HTML? It is just a matter of context I think. Of course there will be some minor adjustment time.
Dave- any Leung Sheung stories would be greatly appreciated. I wont make camp this year so I will miss my yearly fix.
Tom
John W. sez:
John’s loyalty and praise of LS is understandable. And it seems to me( the famous IMO) that LS was close to Ip man and that LS
must have beena very good wc teacher given KC and others.
But there were several others who spenta long time learning from and with Ip man whose wing chun and students are also notable and powerful.. But part of the problem is that list discussions dont provide a stable setting for discussing lots of things. And the MODuk tradition keeps the older generation from saying much about their contemporaries- known and unknown.
Makes the problem of newbies in deciding who to study with- not easy. There are IMO obviously ( seen from their motions) folks who barely were with Ip man- who mention IM at the drop of a hat and claim to know all of the “Real” IM wc. Finding a top notch kung fu teacher of ANY style is not the easiest thing in the world. Is IM wing chun “durable” given the passage of time… IMO- incredibly so-
if one understands it conceptually and practically and knows and learns how to apply it in a non contrived manner.
Greshan’s law of bad money driving out the good is very much alive IMO in contemporary wing chun. Good wing chun is a rare thing- but hey good anything is a rare thing---- look at the standard boxing matches anywhere and then see again the Ali-Foreman fight or the secong Robinson- Fulmer fight- different worlds. I think that newbies to wing chun if they are serious, need to make a serious effort in findinga good and competent teacher
as LS, WSL and HKM and some others did , practice and practice AND ignore the net!!!
Joy
Hi Tom,
Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I think much is owed to Yip Man for being a good teacher…and to Leung Sheung for being a good student. Leung Sheung, I think, had the benifit of wisdom and age in addition to martial experience. You mentioned that we would have to spend a lot of time unlearning previous skills, I think Leung Sheung did a great job at it.
I think it was easier for Leung Sheung than for many folks because he trusted and believed what Yip Man told him. Many cannot grasp the principles of Wing Chun, or through greediness or fearfulness, fail to develop the requisite skills. Students must have faith in what they’re being taught.
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I suppose if TST students were here, the same people would argue against his skills too. LOL
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I asked Ken about his knowledge of the question of Yip Man’s teaching of the sets vs. san sau. Ken defers entirely to Lok Yiu and TST on that matter of history since only they were there.
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Alan- I think it is the person that makes a good martial artist. Ken is such a person and would have been good at what ever art he wished. Heck, his guitar playing probably would have been as good had he not found Leung Sheung. LOL.
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Don’t know about guitar, but his high school grades would certainly have been better, I’m sure.
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I look in my current class and note that some people get it while others don’t. There is a such thing as a “natural” I think. I think Ken is as close as one can get.
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Possibly. Depends on what natural means, I 'spose.
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I think there are many skills that are compatible if not even required among different martial arts. Since I don’t have access to Wing Chun at the moment, I have been passing the time in Hung Gar. Hey, stop shouting “heathen” at me!!! You too John!
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Mmmphf! Heretic. Back slider. Apostate.
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But I do find many traits and attributes are similar for each style. I can reflect on many of the words of Ken that I feel help my Hung Gar. Yes it is VERY different in most aspects, but I think there are a lot of similarites between different arts.
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Or is it that after learning Wing Chun, one can apply it in a different martial context? Ben Der has a student who also studies Aikido. Ben shows the student how to make his Aikido work better.
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I think some one with an open mind can easily learn a new art.
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What’s easy to learn may be of no value. Wing Chun is hard to learn, IMO. Karate Wing Chun is easy to learn but relatively ineffective.
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For those of you computer folks, how many have ever confused C++ with HTML?
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That’s much different. No one rips your head off if you include C++ in your HTML coding. (Hmm, maybe you’re right.)
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It is just a matter of context I think. Of course there will be some minor adjustment time.
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Like the rest of one’s lifetime? :rolleyes:
Regards,
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]David W. sez.
My sifu, Ben Der did study White Crane for a while before he met Ken.
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Are you referring to the article with Ben and the White Crane “master?” While not explicitly stated in the article, it was clear from the pictures that the White Crane could not compare with Ben’s Wing Chun answers to White Crane’s techniques. IMO, it wasn’t Ben’s White Crane that gave him those answers, but Ken Chung’s Wing Chun training.
[B]
John’s loyalty and praise of LS is understandable. And it seems to me( the famous IMO) that LS was close to Ip man and that LS
must have beena very good wc teacher given KC and others.
But there were several others who spenta long time learning from and with Ip man whose wing chun and students are also notable and powerful..
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No argument from me.
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But part of the problem is that list discussions dont provide a stable setting for discussing lots of things. And the Mo Duk tradition keeps the older generation from saying much about their contemporaries- known and unknown.
[/B]
In many cases, there isn’t much to say, is there? 
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Makes the problem of newbies in deciding who to study with- not easy. There are IMO obviously ( seen from their motions) folks who barely were with Ip man- who mention IM at the drop of a hat and claim to know all of the “Real” IM wc. Finding a top notch kung fu teacher of ANY style is not the easiest thing in the world. Is IM wing chun “durable” given the passage of time… IMO- incredibly so-
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Yes. Achievement under Yip Man was an uncertain thing.
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if one understands it conceptually and practically and knows and learns how to apply it in a non contrived manner.
Greshan’s law of bad money driving out the good is very much alive IMO in contemporary wing chun. Good wing chun is a rare thing
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Sadly true. And a good point to make here or in any discussion of TCMA.
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Hey, then they’d likely be ignoring you and me! How unfortunate for them. 
We all envy you that on the listed three above, only HKM is still alive to provide quality input, but at least he has passed his knowledge on into competent hands.
Regards,