It’s been some time since I’ve posted here. So “hello” to those of you who remember me.
Gene is that Shaolin you spend so much time on the real Shaolin or did real Shaolin relocate to places like Taiwan or become MAs like Kuntao/Kuntaw and Tode? Just wondering what your take was. Don’t let duckets effect your answer :).
Thank you much, sir.
Yes to all questions!*
*Hey, if it worked for Yoko to court John, it’s gotta work, right?
I’m sure we’ve covered this before, but Songshan Shaolin has thousands upon thousands of students in the area. They just did a demonstration last year that had 45,000 students. Among those 45,000, you’ll find wushu, sanda, TKD, muslim styles, even a weird version of cardiokickboxing. And you’ll find authentic traditional Shaolin there too. You’ll find authentic traditional Shaolin outside Shaolin as well, in Taiwan, in other styles, all over. But there are no guarantees with any place, style or country. If you think you can find traditional shaolin in kuntaw, I bet I can find ‘wushu’ kuntaw too (using the term wushu rather loosely here, but you should know what I mean.) Shaolin is much more than just martial arts techniques - check out our 2005 Shaolin special for more details on why. If you want an easy answer on who has the real Shaolin, you’re not really on the Shaolin path. Try something less metaphysical, like tennis perhaps.
And don’t call me ‘sir’ - I’m as good as you.
Had been in Shaolin Temple four times in my life. The first time when I was there during 1980, I saw only one old monk half sleeping in the temple. The 2nd time I went back in 1994 during Cheng Chou Wushu Festival, there were lots of monks and they all claimed that they had been raised in Shaolin temple all their life. Different styles of Wushu were shown along the new highway that they just built from Chen Chou to Shaolin temple for that festival and I still have everything recorded on my tape.
For $1000 you can have a stone template carved with with your name on and you can take pictures with Shaolin monks dressed in tradition uniform in front of that stone template so you can hang your pictures in your school to show that you have strong connection to “Shaolin Temple”.
$1000
There have only been two steles sponsored by schools outside Shaolin erected in nearly a decade and they cost a lot more than a $1000. One was Taguo. The other was USSD. 'nuf said.
I’d be happy to dress as a monk and take a picture with you for much less, but I’m not shaving my head for less than a $1000. You’ll just have to make do with a long-haired fake monk.
Is TKD wushu?
No, it’s watered down and morphed Shotokan, a kid combat SPORT.
Is Shaolin Wu Shu TKD? I bet a lot of their kicking techs are.
I’m an Orthodox Shorin Ryu guy. I feel that the Shaolin influence in what we do is probably more Shaolin than you’ll ever see at any modern Shaolin Temple, albeit with Satsuma Clan Kenjutsu and Ti amalgamated with it.
I have manners so I call most cats sir and most chicks ma’am. That’s the difference between the sun-belt and the Weak Coast or Left Coast. It’s called “manners” and r-e-s-p-e-c-t.
Word.
As for Kuntaw/Kuntao- the Kuntaw I saw in the Philippines was not modern wu shu, although in the truest sense of the term it was decent wu shu. It looked a lot like Eagle Claw to me. I think the last of the real Shaolin drifted to Okinawa, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and Taiwan (and maybe Hong Kong).
Just admit it; that Shaolin deal on the mainland is a money-making enterprise. The emphasis on Shaolin teaching shifted (after the last destruction of the temple) from the pursuit of Ch’an Buddhism to the learning of Zen/Ch’an “principles” (as well as Confuscianism) in conjunction with solid SD techniques. These techs are seen in their most unadulterated forms outside the mainland. IMO.
Thanks.
yes sir!
Forgive my ‘sir’ hang up. It’s something I’ve gleaned from some of my veteran friends and another buddy who was a DI. It’s sort of reflexive. I’ve never been much for titles, especially when they are directed to me.
Sure, there’s a lot of money being made by some people at Shaolin - there’s also a lot of rather poor masters too. It’s an extraordinary range. But imagine, if you will, a city that you can walk across in less than an hour with 80 registered schools, most with several hundred students, some with thousands of students. Now, challenges are still fought at Shaolin. Challenges are not at all uncommon in PRC - certainly more common than here in the states. I’ve witnessed them myself there. There’s actually a rather complicated schedule overseen by the local government to assure that warring schools don’t have the same day off - it was installed because the kids were getting into too many fights. With that kind of pressure, do you think that a school that’s strictly wushu can survive? Don’t judge Shaolin on what the tourist sees. There’s a lot that happens at Shaolin that isn’t as obvious.
I took this from the article on your site
“There was a group of women dressed in shocking hot pink spandex, doing some sort of cardio kickboxing. I could have spent days just watching it all, but it was over in less than two videotape cassettes”
I am highly disappointed that there aren’t pictures or video clips of these ladies on in the article.
How about sharing some footage of those two video cassettes with us! Please?!
For the sake of good kung fu brotherly love. 
:rolleyes:
You’re not the first to ask…
I fear it’ll be a bit of a let down to be honest, but I’m planning to include that footage in my upcoming video Shaolin Trips - we are taking preorders for the DVD… 
thats cool. if there are lots of fights, these kids should be learning to use their techniques pretty well then. 
cardio wushu and fighting
You know, I don’t want to get anyone’s hopes up on the “shocking hot pink spandex” - there are cardio-like programs on CCTV in the morning in China and Chinese cardio outfits, well, they’re just not as provacative as they are here. It’s like swimsuits in the 1950’s…
As for fighting, Shaolin and wushu, coming from a traditional background myself, the traditionalists do tend to short change wushu fighting skills. It’s not that wushu people can’t fight. It’s that they can’t fight as well as traditional. But I’d still say that a wushu person will be fit and could fight better than some one who doesn’t do anything at all. All being equal, consider the following fight matches:
Match wushu vs. traditional, put my money on traditional.
Match wushu vs. an average person, put my money on wushu.
Match wushu vs. a street fighter, put my money on the street fighter.
Match traditional vs. a street fighter, put my money on the street fighter.
Combine traditional and street fighting and you get something very effective.
Combine wushu and street fighting and I’m not quite sure what happens yet. I’d almost go so far to say you get traditional, but perhaps I’m just being incendiary.
hey gene, how about a neat article about that sort of nuance? i once saw a video of a shaolin challenge that occurred as a film crew was on site. quite an interesting expression. after about fifteen minutes there was a sea of bodies all over the place. there’s got to be some kind of culture of school challenges…?.. like the victors laying down in front of the school afterwards…?
What about verses the military guy (marine, green baret, red guard) or law enforcement (swat etc) ?
well, that gets more complicated…
Technically, modern sanda is modern wushu and there’s a lot of modern sanda taught around Shaolin. Where does Sanda stand against traditional kung fu and street fighting? I’m not really sure. As for military skills, those generally beat martial arts as an academic practice. I still hold a good street fighter in the highest regard though - those most intense fights I’ve seen have been street fights, no doubt. Of course, keep in mind, this is just postulation on the premise that all other things are equal…
We should not practice traditional CMA any more. Instead we should just hang around bars and street corner, smoke cigarette, get drunk, involved with drugs, and pick up fight everyday. We would be in better shape that way.
Just don’t know where “street fighter”'s striking power, speed, and endurance came from if they don’t spent training time in front of punching bag and spar with training partners. Most of the so called “street fighter” didn’t even know how to hold a fist correctly and they only know how to throw a “turtle punch” not even a straight jab. They even fight with their eyes closed.
I just don’t buy attitute such as. “No matter how hard and how long that you have trained in TCMA, you wil be beaten up in the street”.
Very very sad for the image of TCMA indeed.
. . . Ever had to take a chance against the kind of guy that fights in the public eye, on the street? I’m guessing that’s a no since you obviously know so little about teh str33t l3th@l.
'Mega -
Are you saying that your Matsumura Orthodox is closer to Shaolin than traditional Shaolin (not a reference ot the modern wushu version) and closer to the White Crane than current White Crane Kung Fu?
How do you know that I know so little about …? What make you come up such conclusion?
Why we have to get involve with “you” or “I” in the discussion? If I say “yes” then you will ask me to prove it. But I cannot prove it to you unless we will meet someday. If I say “no” then you will say that I don’t know what I was talking about here.
Most of the unpleasant internet argument started like this and since I don’t get paid by writting on the forum, I have no interest in debating like this.
Why you guys are so afraid of “street fighters” and don’t have respect and confidence in your own TCMA? Will any MMA. BJJ, Muai Thai, or Systema guy scare you guys to death?
For a while I thought this is Bullshido forum instead of Kung Fu Magzine Forum. It’s very sad for TCMA indeed! People don’t even have confidence in themselves.
Well, if YOUKNOWWHO would come clean about who he was, you wouldn’t have to ask those questions, VASH. He’s got skills and I’d take his word on just about anything concerning R34L fighting.
YouKnowWho
We should not practice traditional CMA any more. Instead we should just hang around bars and street corner, smoke cigarette, get drunk, involved with drugs, and pick up fight everyday. We would be in better shape that way.
Well, I have been.
OK, not really, maybe in my younger daze… :rolleyes:
The problem with your statement is that it is based on a rather limited vision of martial arts as a lifestyle. It’s the same error that all the BJJ/reality/street fighting people make: the only value to MA is if it can save you life in a street fight. That’s so ridiculous. Seriously, how many fights are you really getting into on the street? I do volunteer work for a Free Medical clinic and have to do a takedown every month or so, but that’s just me and my life is a bit unusual, to say the least. It’s given me a great respect for street fighters, especially the ones who can use a sharp. I do use my CMA training in these situations, so mind you, I didn’t say it was useless by any means. CMA clearly works on the street, but the street is dirty and most people fight clean. I would still say all things being equal, the street fighter has an advantage.
But that advantage doesn’t last long - those street fighters pay their dues and seldom live to keep banging to their old age. One bad street fight and they may be crippled for life, or dead. That doesn’t happen so much in CMA, or any traditional MA for that matter. That’s the benefit of fighting clean. Fighting dirty is costly. And there’s no way you can really train to fight dirty without getting blood on your hands. That’s where all the MA fails on the street, but that’s ok. We make up for it by taking a moral high ground.
What’s more, traditional MA can be an old man’s game. In fact, it can be played to a ripe old age. Are those masters going to throw down in that street corner bar of yours? Not likely. But they could probably escape that situation unharmed. It’s about longevity. There’s no longevity to street fighting.
Real martial arts is about the lifestyle and I apply my training in everyday life all the time. Of course, again, my life is unusual and it’s easy for me to say this because I’m a professional martial artist. I earn all of my living here and have done so for nearly 20 years. But still, many of my friends apply CMA in all sorts of ways. I’ve got a good buddy going through chiropractice school and his CMA training has given him a great advantage. I’ve got another friend who saved his little kid’s skull from being split when some one accidently barged on their stall as he was helping his son in the potty. You can’t get more value then that. There’s no fight, but there’s CMA applications.
Just returned from DengFeng on monday …
A side note on the latter derailment of this thread: I’ve done CMA for 20 years (age 13 to age 33, in a month time) and have been in only 2 “street fights”, the first as a teen and the second 11 years ago, so I’m doing CMA far more for well-being, fitness, sport, “art”, and many other reasons rather than for fighting on the streets, something I hope I will never do again or at worse once every 15 years or more
Now getting back to the original topic … I just got back from Shaolin a few days ago. Thanks to Shi Xing Hong, a few IWF Beijing friends, and Russbo contacts, I got to hang out with De Yang, De Chao, a bunch of WuShu Guan guys, and there is definitely plenty of real Shaolin left, amongst the modern WuShu and other assorted hybrids, all of which I like anyway (I do both trad and modern taolu and sanda).
For one-week-old Shaolin pictures (mostly of me as it is my school site) you can go to www.shaolin-wushu.it , there is a NEW button on the homepage or go to images.
Still buzzing from the trip
wall
Thanks for all the responses especially from Gene and Wall. If it works for you then it’s a good MA, regardless of drift or origin. I don’t doubt that a WuShu champ can kick ass, even a common thugs ass. Most street fighters are use to fighting and may even enjoy fighting, but their skills are often rudimentary and based on stealing someone or fighting dirty. Not so different form real MAs SD.
Vash the answer to your question is “yes” and “no”. I feel that there are other styles of MAs out there who have retained the essence of the self-preservation aspect of Shaolin Ssu moreso than even most arts identifying themselves with the Shaolin moniker. They don’t call Shorin, Shorin because it has no Shorin influence. In our ryuha we have retained the fighting lessons pictured in the Bubishi (Wu Bei Zhi).
I don’t feel that what we do in Orthodox Shuri Te is purer White Crane, but it does have that influence. The truth is Matsumura’s Shuri Te (Shorin) is an amalgam of Shaolin/White Crane Chuan Fa, Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu from the Satsuma Clan and Okinawa Ti. It’s a MMA. You knew this though.
Later and I hope to eventually travel to the mainland to peep out the modern ShorinJi (Shaolin Temple). I might challenge one of the baldies while I’m there!
