Leg Lock Questions

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

Hi, I was wondering if I could get some advice and insight into leg locks.

The kind of leg lock pictured in the attachment.

From my understanding, leg locks are dangerous because its hard to feel and tell when you are damaging the joint?

If you are standing and your opponent is prone, on their back, and you have good hold of an ankle or lower leg, can you drop and cross your legs into this position without the impact injuring the knee?

if the guy in black had his left leg tucked into the joint behind his right knee, like a figure four, would that be more effective?

Tucking the ankle in under the armpit, is that to anchor, or attack the ankle, it hurts..

And, just exactly what is being attacked, and what is the ‘fine tuning’ that cranks it up? I mean, beyond the obvious.

And, given the position I mentioned earlier, having the leg and dropping, is that a high or low percentage move?

Thanks in advance.

In case its not obvious, any training techniques for this move would be welcome…

2

looks like a heel hook kinda… can’t really tell from the pic. the guys foot is covered up or hidden in the blue pants.

almost looks like a leg bar as well with the pressure on the knee.

The thing I’ve learned about leg subs. they are hard to sink in. Lot of muscle mass and streng. in the legs harder to manuever than an arm. Some people are good at them but in my experience if it presents itself I’m not going to pass it up but I’m not going to fight the power in the legs to an exhaustion.

3

In the scenario you decribe, it works like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WADZQoe2EWE

That’s a heel hook. It tears the ligaments in the knee, but isn’t necessarily a fight ender. Smart people tap to avoid surgery, though.

Black has his feet on the belly to prevent the guy from sitting up. Sitting up into a leglock is a good defense to prevent the attacker from sinking it deep. Figure-fouring works also (called “the saddle” in Sambo), but you have to make the figure four on the inside of his legs.

I wouldn’t say it’s a high-percentage move, per se, but like anything else, the more you practice it, the better the odds you’re going to get it.

4

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]Hi, I was wondering if I could get some advice and insight into leg locks.

The kind of leg lock pictured in the attachment.

From my understanding, leg locks are dangerous because its hard to feel and tell when you are damaging the joint?..[/QUOTE]

sort of, there are two main leg locks types, straight leg locks like knee bars and achieles lock, and twisting locks like toe holds and the heel hook in this picture, twisting leg locks are banned from most low level comps for the reason you posted, straight leg locks are normally allowed from day 1 in no gi comps
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]
If you are standing and your opponent is prone, on their back, and you have good hold of an ankle or lower leg, can you drop and cross your legs into this position without the impact injuring the knee?..[/QUOTE]

Yes you can the damage come from not dropping into position but in fixing the knee so it cant move (between your two legs like in the photo) achoring the foot and then twisting the foot and thus attacking the knee
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]
if the guy in black had his left leg tucked into the joint behind his right knee, like a figure four, would that be more effective?..[/QUOTE]

Not really you need to clamp the knee between his legs to stop it moving and use his foot on the stomach to stop the opponent from sitting up
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]
Tucking the ankle in under the armpit, is that to anchor, or attack the ankle, it hurts…[/QUOTE]

Its an anchor, you imobalise the knee, trap the foot hook the heel with your hand and twist with your whole body, if you dont have the foot anchored he will just escape it.

The heel hook attacks the whole length of the leg, its main attack is on the knee but if your ankles arent used to it they could hurt too, i have also seen spiraling fractures of the shin bone from this move as well
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]
And, just exactly what is being attacked, and what is the ‘fine tuning’ that cranks it up? I mean, beyond the obvious…[/QUOTE]

mainly the ligiments of the knee, although as stated spiral fractures of the shin bone have also happened

the fine tuning is making sure the knee is anchored, that the opponent cant sit up, that the foot is trapped and the leg stays bent (when you fall down fall into him rather than away and if you have to scoot your bum towards him to ensure it stays bent) , then you hook the heel and turn towards the trapped knee with your whole body not just the hands,
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]
And, given the position I mentioned earlier, having the leg and dropping, is that a high or low percentage move?..[/QUOTE]

probably lowish, as in the video masterkiller posted it tends to work better from the ground, dropping into it allows too much space and time for your opponent to sit up (if this happens you are now on your back he is on top your hands are trapped on his leg…if strikes are allowed you are in for some fun :eek: )

its better to learn to pass the guard, or if grappling is not your thing to soccer kick him in the head:)
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030534]
Thanks in advance.

In case its not obvious, any training techniques for this move would be welcome…[/QUOTE]

practise them with people you trust, and who trust you, start slowly and build up to them.

Leg locks can be good and useful however one of the reasons BJJ left them until later belt ranks (apart from te danger of some of them) was they create bad grappling habbits, for example falling to your back in stead of passing and staing on top,

5

I’m more aggressive in nature and probably would tend to lean towards this or straight heel hook. :slight_smile:

6

Leg locks are a tad tricky, put when you can get them sunk in, the work well.
Because you have the other leg and BOTH arms of the opponent to deal with,they become harder, but if done by surprise and very explosively, they work great, just ask Anderson Silva ;).
As with all locks, the limb most be immobilised as much as possible BEFORE applying the lock, but the transition from immobilization to locking it in must be very quick and smooth.
If you wanna train them I suggest taking one at a time and training the heck out of it from every position imaginable, it will give you quick feed back on how to get into it and how to sink it in.

Bas teaches a wicked “inverted” heel hook too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-Vaj9JV5bQ

7

Leg scissor to heel hook:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267i7rKeECA

8

Thanks for the good oil lads. I can see what it is I need to look into more.

In the regular turn of play, I find I can do a takedown where the opponent ends up on their back and I’m holding the leg.

Normally I would sink the boot in to the ‘taint’ and hope it doesn’t get stuck…

But it occurred to me, falling back into a leg lock is a possibility…but this is what I’m hearing…

Better to kick the guy in the 'scro and be done with him…

Not good grappling to go from standing above, to laying beneath (makes a kind of basic sense…lol)

Controlling the ankle is as important as controlling the leg.

practice

I appreciate the links to the vids and all, thanks.

9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5x-D792GI

10

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030694]Thanks for the good oil lads. I can see what it is I need to look into more.

In the regular turn of play, I find I can do a takedown where the opponent ends up on their back and I’m holding the leg.

Normally I would sink the boot in to the ‘taint’ and hope it doesn’t get stuck…

But it occurred to me, falling back into a leg lock is a possibility…but this is what I’m hearing…[/QUOTE]

it is a posibility and if you get good at leglocks it can be very effective
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030694]
Better to kick the guy in the 'scro and be done with him…[/QUOTE]

on the street for sure, mma if its allowed yes, training, well play around with things just be aware of the downfalls for going for it, and dont let it replace good guard passing or ahaving a good top game
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030694]
Not good grappling to go from standing above, to laying beneath (makes a kind of basic sense…lol).[/QUOTE]

Its a BJJ thing lol hirearchy of position is stressed alot, if i can stay on top or stay standing, then falling to my back is in my opinion not such a great option, it is an option but lke all things has pros and cons: cons anytime you go for a leg lock you open yourself up to a counter leg lock, you allow your opponent to get on top if he reacts quick enough, you have given up a good position…pro points leg locks if put on quick can be fight enders, not many people can defend them well and they catch alot of guys by surprise
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1030694]
Controlling the ankle is as important as controlling the leg..[/QUOTE]

controlling the knee is really important but the ankle is where you start the attack

practice

I appreciate the links to the vids and all, thanks.[/QUOTE]

11

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1030614]Leg scissor to heel hook:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267i7rKeECA[/QUOTE]

That’s very interesting… Thanks.

12

If you are standing it would depend on what they do, if they turn on their stomach you can even boston crab. but yeh i’d rather stand and kick them or just wait as they stand and knee them.
But being a small guy (165cms and 56kgs) it is harder to get a guy bigger then you due to the length of the leg. Normally go for the twisting ones more then the straight knee bars etc.