LauGar KungFu Origins - any evidence?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

I know this has been mentioned on and off in passing, but there didn’t seem to be any real discussion of this.

All kungfu styles tend to have a muddled history, such is the nature of the beast, but LauGar seems to be more muddled than most. I am talking about the style as taught by Jeremy Yau, and spread across the country since the 70’s.
(for anyone who cares, I originally trained under Kevin Brewerton in the 90’s and I’ve trained in both BKFA and non-BKFA clubs)

The “facts”* I have seen are:

  1. Lau Gar Kuen is derived from a form of boxing practiced at Kuei Ling Temple situated in Kong Sai Province in west China. It was learned from a monk on retreat from that temple by the master “Three Eyed Lau”, a tiger hunter, whom we honour as founder of our style. The style subsequently became popular over a large part of South West China.
    source: http://www.laugar-kungfu.com/history.htm

however:
2) The Bejing University of Martial Arts have never heard of it.

3a) Various HungGar sites claim that their style absorbed two forms “laugar gwan” and “laugar kuen” so as to stop the style dying out (implying it’s died out elsewhere).

3b) Other HungGar sites claim that the “laugar kuen” is actually a MokGar form, and “laugar gwan” is actually from Southern Mantis. They are called “laugar” because the person who brought them into the style was called “lau”.

4)Master Yau came here in about 1965 (i think).
He worked in various jobs, including I believe a chinese resturant.
During this time he did not really teach, but practiced either solo or with one or two others. More and more people started to get interested and the numbers slowly grew.

Then in 1973 Mike Haig (editor & founder of “Combat Magazine”)and several of Master Yau’s students thought it a good idea to formalise their training by asking Master Yau to setup the British Kung Fu Association.
This he did so, and with a group of his most senior students started to structure and create a more formal system. They took the training methods and the forms Master Yau taught and created the syllabus roughly as we know it today.

  1. The inimation that the above implies Yau took things from other systems and adapted them for his style.

So… does anyone have anything else to say about LauGar? Is the BKFA’s LauGar the LauGar family style from the ancient temples? Did Master Yau make it all up as he went along? Could it be there are many “Lau” styles out there, not neccessarily connected?

In short, does anyone have any actual evidence or do we have to go on hearsay?

And before I get jumped on by all the BKFA lot, I’m not trying to discredit Master Yau - I’m trying to find out about where the style comes from. Lineage of all the forms, and so on.

*The reason i say “facts” in quote marks is that not a single one has sited a source so it’s all anecdotal evidence, alot of it i’ve gleaned from what people have said on internet forums.

2

[QUOTE=DaveTart;718495]
3a) Various HungGar sites claim that their style absorbed two forms “laugar gwan” and “laugar kuen” so as to stop the style dying out (implying it’s died out elsewhere).

3b) Other HungGar sites claim that the “laugar kuen” is actually a MokGar form, and “laugar gwan” is actually from Southern Mantis. They are called “laugar” because the person who brought them into the style was called “lau”.
[/QUOTE]

Just a clarification about the (3b) part - which BTW is coming from the horse’s mouth (Lam family, as the sets were included under Lam Jo) - the claim is that the Lau Ga kuen and Lau Ga Gwun as taught within Hung Ga, are not Lau Ga, but as you said from a Mok Ga guy whose name was Lau. It does not however dispute or say anything about the Lau Ga style outside of Hung Kuen.

While it is anectdotal evidence, to my knowledge the other southern styles recognize there is such a thing as Lau Ga. The five families (Hung, Choy, Mok, Li, Lau) are pretty famous and at least 3 (to my limited knowledge) are alive and kicking so I really don’t see why one of them would be fictitous? But I agree it is a bit of mistery where the style has gone in china, and why it seems so rare? Good luck and let us know what you can find out.

cheers

mok

3

[QUOTE=mok;718498]Just a clarification about the (3b) part - which BTW is coming from the horse’s mouth (Lam family, as the sets were included under Lam Jo) - the claim is that the Lau Ga kuen and Lau Ga Gwun as taught within Hung Ga, are not Lau Ga, but as you said from a Mok Ga guy whose name was Lau. It does not however dispute or say anything about the Lau Ga style outside of Hung Kuen.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a source for that? I tried googling it but couldn’t get far.
And that is actually very helpful info. It explains why the LauGar Kuen I’ve seen performed by HungGar guys (there are a few on YouTube) looks nothing like our style.
If HungGar’s Lau forms were from that original temple style (which it seems they aren’t) then it would take alot of explaining as to why it looks nothing like the style we do!

While it is anectdotal evidence, to my knowledge the other southern styles recognize there is such a thing as Lau Ga. The five families (Hung, Choy, Mok, Li, Lau) are pretty famous and at least 3 (to my limited knowledge) are alive and kicking so I really don’t see why one of them would be fictitous? But I agree it is a bit of mistery where the style has gone in china, and why it seems so rare? Good luck and let us know what you can find out.

I didn’t mean to imply LauGar is fictitious. I meant more that is the style I do directly from the five family styles, or something else?
Without any additional evidence, it’s hard to say.

4

Lau Gae Kuen

Lau Gar Kuen , is still being taught in Hong Kong, it is very much underground and kept within the family so to speak. A person would have to go to Hong kong and join the family if you get my meaning with no guarntee of learning.:wink:

I am v good friends with Jeremy Yau’s cousin who grandfather was the Grandmaster of the system, so know what is still available out in Hong Kong.

5

[QUOTE=DaveTart;718505]Do you have a source for that? I tried googling it but couldn’t get far.
[/QUOTE]

Well this was from the old SouthernFist forum which sadly is no more, so I’m afraid I can’t pull the link up. However the gentleman who told this was sifu Micahel Goodwin from San Francisco who is pretty easy to find and is active on other forums elsewhere. IMO Sifu Goodwin is pretty knowledgeable and a reliable source of info, as well as a direct student of Lam Jo.

6

[QUOTE=Wong Ying Home;718571]Lau Gar Kuen , is still being taught in Hong Kong, it is very much underground and kept within the family so to speak. A person would have to go to Hong kong and join the family if you get my meaning with no guarntee of learning.:wink:

I am v good friends with Jeremy Yau’s cousin who grandfather was the Grandmaster of the system, so know what is still available out in Hong Kong.[/QUOTE]

Thats all well and good, but doesn’t explain why the Bejing Institute of Martial Arts has never heard of it. Is it really that underground?

Any chance you can press him for info? I’d love to know more about what is taught over there, lineage etc. and how it differs from what we do.

7

[QUOTE=DaveTart;718596]Thats all well and good, but doesn’t explain why the Bejing Institute of Martial Arts has never heard of it. Is it really that underground?

Any chance you can press him for info? I’d love to know more about what is taught over there, lineage etc. and how it differs from what we do.[/QUOTE]

Who in the the BeiJing institute has never heard of it, and who asked?
IMO I personally wouldn’t care what the Bei Jing institute has to say, considering everyone in H.K and GuangDong has heard of it going back 100 yrs or so. Also, keep in mind, there might have been a political agenda here or an some loss of traceable info from the cutltural upheavals of the last century.

Another thing, did whoever ask this question ask in english for “Lau Ga”? If that’s the case you may want to ask in written form with the actual chinese character for the Lau surname and /or try with pinyin romanization - “Lau” is the cantonese pronounciation, the mandarin (i.e. Bei Jing equivalent) would probably be “Liu Jia Quan”, and it’s not certain some low-level bureaucrat who spent his life in Bei Jing would know that name in Cantonese.

8

[QUOTE=mok;718617]Who in the the BeiJing institute has never heard of it, and who asked?
IMO I personally wouldn’t care what the Bei Jing institute has to say, considering everyone in H.K and GuangDong has heard of it going back 100 yrs or so. Also, keep in mind, there might have been a political agenda here or an some loss of traceable info from the cutltural upheavals of the last century.[/QUOTE]

This is precisely my point, that none of the facts are backed up at all: So I’m seeing what else I can find.
Where are these people in HK saying it goes back 100years or so? As far as I can see, the only person making any such claim is Jeremy Yau.

"The British sites claim the system came from Guangxi (Kong Sai) province whereas the Chinese sources all maintain that the style is distinctly Guangdong. The British sites all list Flower Fist and Six Harmony Fist as part of their curriculum. It would be interesting to see how they are performed, as in China, both are Northern style names. "

Another thing, did whoever ask this question ask in english for “Lau Ga”? If that’s the case you may want to ask in written form with the actual chinese character for the Lau surname and /or try with pinyin romanization - “Lau” is the cantonese pronounciation, the mandarin (i.e. Bei Jing equivalent) would probably be “Liu Jia Quan”, and it’s not certain some low-level bureaucrat who spent his life in Bei Jing would know that name in Cantonese.

Well LauGar should be in Hakka from what I’ve read, which muddies the waters even further. The only evidence I have about the BJ institute thing is on this forum: http://www.karatekorner.com/messageboard/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=6&Topic=2295&srow=11&erow=20

“Well I’ve already been in touch with the Beijing University of MA, who found nothing, so don’t bust a gut.”

9

Lau ( Liu in pinyin) is a common Chinese family name, but the Lau Ga Kyun is indeed rare. And not much info is found. Like there are more then one Li Ga Kyuns is not impossible that there are more Lau Ga Kyuns. Sometimes it is called Guangdong Liu Jiaquan (). The history should be about 200 years old and as it prominent ancestors three are called:
1= Lau Saang (Liu Sheng)
2= Lau Jat Ngaan (Liu Yi Yan)
3= Lau Cing San (Liu Qing Shan)
Mostly Lau Yat Ngaan is mentioned as it founder and Lau Cing San as the creator of it’s present form.
Although often called “Guangdong Liu Jiaquan” is was in China up to the 1980’s “only” taught in Zhong Shan ().

Some Chinese site:
Zhong Shan Lau Ga Kyun
http://www.zsqk.gov.cn/color/c_show.asp?id=7
Lau Ga Master Xiao Yongding ()
http://www.nanfangdaily.com.cn/southnews/tszk/nfdsb/zszz/200411250987.asp

10

For the Lau Ga Kyun in Lam Cho lineage Hung Kuen see:
http://www.siulam.info/lauga.htm

and also see the Lau Ga theme in the forum linked from that website.

(sifu Michael Goodwin from San Francisco) who is pretty easy to find and is active on other forums elsewhere. IMO Sifu Goodwin is pretty knowledgeable and reliable source of info, as well as a direct student of Lam Jo.

You’re incorrect here.
Although Michael has certainly learned (some) from grandmaster Lam Cho and Lam Cho sigung told him a lot about the history and theories in person, he’s NOT Lam Cho’s student. He’s LAM CHUN SING’s student.

11

LG in Hong Kong

Dave.

Respectfully I think you will find it differs quite a lot from what is being taught in the UK.

Re history I will ask and see what info comes up, if any should my fieind wish to have the information public

12

Thanks for that. I would really like to know what the differences are though.

Is it even the same style? Or different styles with the same name?
Please let me know anything you can find out.

13

[QUOTE=The Great Sage of HU;718658]For the Lau Ga Kyun in Lam Cho lineage You’re incorrect here.
Although Michael has certainly learned (some) from grandmaster Lam Cho and Lam Cho sigung told him a lot about the history and theories in person, he’s NOT Lam Cho’s student. He’s LAM CHUN SING’s student.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected. Give my best to sifu Goodwin, if you see him.

14

[QUOTE=Fung Ngan;718645]Although often called “Guangdong Liu Jiaquan” is was in China up to the 1980’s “only” taught in Zhong Shan ().

Some Chinese site:
Zhong Shan Lau Ga Kyun
http://www.zsqk.gov.cn/color/c_show.asp?id=7
Lau Ga Master Xiao Yongding ()
http://www.nanfangdaily.com.cn/southnews/tszk/nfdsb/zszz/200411250987.asp[/QUOTE]

In the second article they also say, that there’s this version of Lau ga’s histrory, that Lau ga taught in Zhongshan area is in fact Choy ga (Cai jia) as original Lau gar already died out. :slight_smile:

15

Hmmmm. Looks like I’m going to have to learn to read chinese to make any sense of half this stuff. Wish I could get hold of Videos or something, just so I can compare.

I did read that one of our forms Lau Gar luk Hup Kuin (liu jia liu he quan) is the name of a form rumored to be created by General Yue Fei. It’s included in several styles including Yue Jia.
Interesting.

16

The Lau Gar taught by Jeremy Yau in the UK is not the same as the lau gar taught in Hung Gar. The hung gar version is one of the five families. Mok, Fut, Choy Hung and Lau I believe. Southern Shaolin is not my style but I hope I have understood a little…

If you look at the Hung Gar lau gar forms you will see they are very different to J Yau’s version. Some people will say he made it up but my take would be that it was a small family style and I would imagine the two chinese character for Lau might be different. If you look at the UK lau gar forms they do not look traditional. The first form is similar to wing chun but done in horse stance and another for called chap choy looks for like southern mantis/pak mei (sorry if you do one of these styles, don’t mean to offend just trying to give people a reference.)

Mr Yau has included lots of forms and concepts from other styles such as Hung Gar tiger Crane and Sticky hands also.

I would say, if you enjoy your style then do it and believe the teachers. I am sure Mr Yau is good at what he does but its not the lau gar which hung gar practitioners would know.

Paul

17

[QUOTE=Paul T England;718783]The Lau Gar taught by Jeremy Yau in the UK is not the same as the lau gar taught in Hung Gar. The hung gar version is one of the five families. Mok, Fut, Choy Hung and Lau I believe. Southern Shaolin is not my style but I hope I have understood a little…[/QUOTE]

Er, we have already said that the “LauGar Kuen” in Hung Gar has nothing to do with the Lau Gar family style. See:

“Alhtought [sic] the names of the sets remind us of one of the famous “five family styles” of Gwongdung with the name Lau Ga, both sets have nothing to do with this style. The sets are named after another Lau family, which is a very common name in China.
The fist set Lau Ga Kyun originally comes from Mok Ga style. A student of Lam Saiwing, bearing the name Lau, had learned this style prior to joining Lam Saiwing’s school. Lam Jou being a young men was very interested in other styles too and learned the set from this person.
Lam Jou changed the crouching postures and narrow stances of the original Mok Ga style to typical stances of Hung family style and added it to his teaching curriculum.
Around the same time Lam Jou also picked up the rat-tail pole set from Chu Ga Tong Long style (praying mantis). This set came from a student of Lau Sui, after whom Lam Jou named the set.
As the sets bore the same name, later the beginning of the fist set was also added to the pole set, making them a matching couple.”

If you look at the Hung Gar lau gar forms you will see they are very different to J Yau’s version. Some people will say he made it up but my take would be that it was a small family style and I would imagine the two chinese character for Lau might be different.

As above, these will be different as they are completely different styles. I am trying to assertain if the mainland China form of LauGar (there seems to be good evidence it is still going) is the same/similar to the LauGar taught in the UK.

If you look at the UK lau gar forms they do not look traditional. The first form is similar to wing chun but done in horse stance and another for called chap choy looks for like southern mantis/pak mei (sorry if you do one of these styles, don’t mean to offend just trying to give people a reference.)

Can I ask what you mean by “don’t look traditional”? do you mean they don’t look like the Wing Chun form, and Praying Mantis ones?

18

Dave - as you very well know (please don’t be cheeky) there is substantial controversy/questionning as to wether the UK Lau Ga is in fact based on any authentic lau ga kung fu style, or if it’s alot more recent (like post 1960’s).

That said, I have nothing to do with this dispute - we have more than enough lineage/sifu battles on our hands within Hung Kuen for me to worry about another art. But not ackowledging there is some controversy when we all know that you know is a bit disingenuous.

Peace,

mok

19

shrug I was hoping I could have an honest discussion about the origins of my style without getting caught up in a fight. I wasn’t denying any such problems in the past. I thought I covered that with:

"And before I get jumped on by all the BKFA lot, I’m not trying to discredit Master Yau - I’m trying to find out about where the style comes from. Lineage of all the forms, and so on. "

20

[QUOTE=DaveTart;718918]shrug I was hoping I could have an honest discussion about the origins of my style without getting caught up in a fight. I wasn’t denying any such problems in the past. I thought I covered that with:

"And before I get jumped on by all the BKFA lot, I’m not trying to discredit Master Yau - I’m trying to find out about where the style comes from. Lineage of all the forms, and so on. "[/QUOTE]

…and I WAS happily obliging (believe me I’m a complete agnostic on the issue anyway) but by saying this up above you opened the door :slight_smile:

: "Can I ask what you mean by “don’t look traditional”? do you mean they don’t look like the Wing Chun form, and Praying Mantis ones?