kung fu vs boxing

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Could somebody tell a lttle history of Wushu, like when it was created where , why etc?Theres a view it was created to apease the masses as practising kung fu is illegal in china but its a part of the culture so made to replace the fighting arts.
Is it a political art? [/quote]

can of worms! can of worms! hahaha.

imho, you are definitely on to something here.
Here is what I know about it (contemporary wu shu of the prc)
Even before the cultural revolution at the time of communist power rising in China, Martial practice by the common folk was branded Illegal and was punishible by imprisonment and even death.

For one to have martial superiority over another (common man) was viewed as a bad thing and many masters of various systems left the country, went into hiding and in fact, some of them entered the red army and took their skill with them.
Military hand to hand combat extrapolated from ancient Kung Fu was accepted, but man in teh street practice of genuine martial arts was NOT.

in 1911-12, the Kuo Ming Tang (Chinese Nationalist Party) under the command of the leader Sun Yat Sen started the non-communist china in Taiwan and there are still arguments about this today. But a lot of Kung Fu was taken there also.

Hong Kong(british) and Macao(portugese) were also havens for traditional Martial arts as well as many other countries where monks had been dispersing as well as all sorts of other masters for years, even decades and in some cases centuries before hand.

This non-acceptance of martial practice amongst the people of mainland china forced those masters who stayed to train in hiding or to join the army.

between 1928 and 1935 because of the cultural ingranation of martial arts was too strong to withold these practices from the people so the prc decided to take control of it somehow.
tournaments were held to determine who had the best ma and it was determined from these men who would form the founding body for the codification of martial arts in china.

The Wu Shu Manuak of all known arts in china was created during this time and as well has been added to since.

still, masters practiced in secret, more kung fu masters left, some took there skill into teh armed forces (again) and so on. And still public practice of martial arts by the common folk was frowned upon.

with the rise to power of Mao Tze Tung in the late forties and fifties, contemporary wu shu routines were created for consumption by the public. these were built upon until the 1970’s when there was a decision made to codify and systematize these wu shu routines to use as a vehicle of instillation of pride and nationhood. However, martial application was stripped from much of the material so it would be deemed acceptable as a national art.

after the nineteen seventies, ping pong was replaced as the national sport by wu shu and the Kuo Sho (national arts) federation was established and the routines were standardized into what is now contemporary wu shu of the peoples republic of china.

The true Kung Fu styles in the meantime had traveled an utterly different path and instead evolved into the myriad of village systems of kung fu as well as major family systems that were kept alive in regions outside of mainland china.

Some of these arts had wu shu routines built from them and if you see them you will see the marked difference in the way the form is practiced, power is issued and expression is issued.

wu shu based on Hung style looks nothing like Traditional Hung Kuen and the same is true of most wu shu that is drawn from old systems that were kept alive elsewhere.

A very popular style of wu shu is based almost entirely on Northern systems and draws heavily from the northern style created by the late Mater Kyu Yu Cheong.
KYC North Shaolin is really quite flashy and could likely win some forms competitions at a wu shu tournament, the difference is that KYC North Shaolin is martially applicable in each and every motion whereas the wu shu based upon it is not by far.

so, in the rest of the world, this is even more exhascerbating(sp?) because of simply not knowing what is what until one has practiced and learned a system.
Many contemporary wu shu stylists in the west think they are doing the real thing and will offer all sorts of arguments about why’s and wheretofores, about the wu shu they do.
On the other side of the table are the traditional martial artists in the west who adamantly believe that wu shu is in no way shape or form related to the actual real thing that is traditional kung fu training.

in some ways (on a very shallow level) contemporary wu shu is related. On a level of principal and training methodology they are not related.

some have bridged the two and will practice both.
or fighting knowledge and self improvement and health and all the other good stuff, they will practice a full course of Kung Fu including conditioning exercises, health practices, Chi Kung and the rest that goes with trad training. But for performing in forms tournaments should they enjoy doing it, well, contemporary wu shu is gonna win those form because its got the needed flash to entertain the audience.

so, you ask, is it a political art?(cws) Yes it is very much so a political art, it is the national art of China in the here and now.

peace

Kung Lek

I think everyone here has strayed abit from the topic thread which is an opinion on the kungfu vs boxing matches that happenned a while ago. I have watched it and here’s my review.

Most of it is crap. The chinese fighters’ skills imho are not very high. I am pretty sure the Chinese fighters are not high level san shou fighters (I hope so anyway). One of the american even won his match by simply dropping down to one of his knees everytime his chinese opponent attempted a throw. The number of times that anti-throw technique work made me to believe these chinese guys’ skills are at best intermediate.

Now to the issue developing here. Wushu/ kungfu technically refer to the same thing, ie. chinese martial arts. Technically wushu is the more correct term but different dialects in China tend to have different ways of calling the same things. Kungfu is very cantonese term that has been made popular in the west and even in China today to some extent. There are many different ways to refer to chinese martial arts. eg. quan fa, wu kung, wushu, kungfu, etc.

Now as we all know, classification of chinese martial arts are broadly categorised into four areas = punch (da), kick(di), throw(shuai), joint locks(qin na). Now sanda/ sanshou is to enable kungfu fighters to compete in a full contact arena using the techniques of the first three categories. I assume maybe qin na is too dangerous to be used and not as effective with gloves on. Often sanda players would learn western boxing for their hand techniques or to complement their existing skills as it is faster to learn and easier to adapt in the sanda arena. However, according to my teacher despite the boxing skills being learnt, the majority of sanda players’ hand techniques are still bad compared to boxers. Most excel in kicking and throwing which happen to also score the most points.

First off I would like to say that you don’t know what you’re talking about mantis108, Kung Fu is not a term to simply describe martial arts, it’s a term to describe something that takes time and effort. Kung Fu can refer to a chef, a musician, or any athlete. Wushu is what we think of as Kung Fu. It is a term that is still very broad, but it is more specific that Kung Fu. Wushu is not necessarily a term to describe “dancing around” but it is a term to describe numberous Chinese fighting styles.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> First off I would like to say that you don’t know what you’re talking about mantis108 [/quote]

HAHA you’re new here aren’t ya???

yes, I mean the planet, are you another white dude with a book tellin’ a Chinese person what Chinese terminology REALLY means?

What the terms CAN refer to is not the issue…

Whambo- Boxing is a sport. Tyson broke his hand on his neighbors head and did NOT score a KO. Boxing is a sport.

About not know anything

I suggest a few things before going into the Kung Fu WuShu arguement.

  1. Please reread what Kung Lek said

  2. Please reread What MoQ said

  3. Please reread What I have said.

  4. Please think before you act.

  5. Please do not echo a text book.

If you really want to enlighten me, please show some teeth such as your lineage(s), etc… If your interest is only what the terms literally means, then you are right and you KNOW it ALL. Perhaps you should try the WuShu forum instead since Kung Fu isn’t about martial arts.

  1. Please find yourself a WuShu Forum.

As for myself, this is what I needed to do

  1. sorry folks, I am distracting the thread again

  2. :rolleyes: :eek:

  3. SIGH

  4. “I am so bad, I make medicine sick.” Muhammad Ali. Thats the closest I can get to the subject of Boxing. :smiley:

  5. Shut myself up.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

boxing is kung fu

for me, fighting is the only way to know if one is good in kung fu or not. so boxing is a kind of kung fu. The boxer may have less technics due to the gloves or whatever, but they do very well their technics. In kung fu, people may have their own’s special, but they do usually not have a lot of special. mastering one technics is also kung fu. So in a fight the best is the one who has a better kung fu.

in other hand, the boxer is used to fight. Their mind is prepared to fight hard. I am not sure that all kung fu practitionner are well prepared to fight.

Last reflexion, there were a lot of kung fu practitionner who fighted boxer. And I did not feel that in their mind they is a difference between them and the boxer. They respect their opponents.

in conclusion, boxing is a good way to know what is a fight. A kung fu practitionner should try it to understand what is a fight. But there is a difference between fighting and the art of fighting. This is only my point of vue on this thread.

:slight_smile:

agrred with apeters28

i’m chinese myself. I have to agree with apeters28
Kung fu doesnt have to represent martial arts. But wu shu does. Wu shu is much meaning martial arts.
I’m saying this becoz i can say i put my kung fu in reading or cooking or whatever. Is meaning putting effort in your work. Therefore Kung fu mean putting effort in what you are doing. That why we need to say Da kung fu. Da mean hitting.

Bull crap ,do not forget kungfu has many styles,some are proven(like northern praying mantis)and you have other crap flowery style .And just because one lousy kungfu fighter lost does not mean all kungfu,maybe he was practising the southern kungfu style which is very restictive in mobility and flexibility ,try putting a northern praying mantis fighter in then will you see a different tune.

kelvein chan

Boxing + Kung Fu

Maybe we are looking at it all wrong… What if you took a bad ass western boxer (light weight or middle weight) and build kung fu principles of his boxing foundation, what do you think the result would be?

boxing

Da,Dar,as in hitting??,lop Dar,tan dar,bong dar,gwat dar,ect.ect.,my best friend was a golden gloves boxer,still has hands like lighting,he was mortified when I took him to a Wing Tsun class,my teacher took him with just hands,no elbows,kicks,take downs,just hands,much slower hands,structure,position all fall into the picture.Wing Tsun Kiszer of Kung Fu Kernspect of Germany said in his book “On Single Combat”(great book btw)“I’m already there,said the turtle to the hare”,my WT teacher said “smother the basterd,I don’t care if he bobs,weaves,Ali shuffles,my hands will find him,take the sob’s head off and his nuts will follow,fight like a Wolverine on crack”,Five Animales of Shaolin??,that one would gets my vote for the 6th,course they didn’t have crack at the shaolin temple,yes,I think its sad when you see these “Kung Fu”,“Wu-shu”,whatever,fighters using western boxing moves when the southern chinese arts are full of hand fighting concepts that are more than a match for the western boxer,IMHO

This is turning into a boxing match itself!

Round Four: who else will come out of the blue corner against Mantis108 in the red?

KUNG FU VS BOXING

One need only to look at the posts in the new kung fu health & exercise forum (whatever it’s called) to see how many of the “kung fu practitioners” who post here have NO idea about the conditioning of the hands, forearms, etc. Many train power generation, but still lack strength. MoQ mentioned Mikie broke his hand; if that can happen to him, what can happen to the guy straight out of kung fu class?

BEGINNER
Let’s put this at under a year of training. In no way do I denegrate kung fu. Boxing is just meant to be quickly effective no matter what school teaches it, just like most karate and TKD. Yeah, go ahead and sound off, but if you put two NOVICES at the same duration of training in the ring, the boxer will win. He already knows how to hit, that’s the whole (and only) point of the sport.

INTERMEDIATE
Let’s put these guys in the three year period. So now the boxer has developed sufficient power in his strikes, decent footwork, and awesome endurance. The kung fu guy has a deeper knowledge of his bag of tricks, good overall conditioning and superior control of his body (this is a generalization based upon an open northern/southern kung fu school). Depending upong the sparring element of the kung fu guy’s training, he might lack the ability to take a hit. Depending upon the boxer’s speed, he might not escape a leg shot/take down. I think the differences in both training strategies begin to become strengths or weaknesses at this stage.

ADVANCED
Don’t think we’ll ever really see proof, because here is where the boxers go into the limelight and the masters go into their caves (or strip malls :wink: ). The really big heavy weights are in a league by themselves. But if you put middleweights on down against advanced kung fu practitioners who spar, hands down SOUTHERN kung fu wins and wins quick.

FT, if you were to preface your question with “BAK MEI” or “LUNG YING” Kung fu vs. Boxing… no one here would come out in favor of boxing. :slight_smile:

“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi

Timing is everything…

“in 1911-12, the Kuo Ming Tang (Chinese Nationalist Party) under the command of the leader Sun Yat Sen started the non-communist china in Taiwan and there are still arguments about this today. But a lot of Kung Fu was taken there also.”

Not sure I understand this, but are you saying the Guomindang fled mainland China in 1912? How did they help bring about the Nationalist government in the late twenties, then?

“between 1928 and 1935 because of the cultural ingranation of martial arts was too strong to withold these practices from the people so the prc decided to take control of it somehow.
tournaments were held to determine who had the best ma and it was determined from these men who would form the founding body for the codification of martial arts in china.”

If by the “prc” you mean the People’s Republic of China, that wasn’t established until after the Second World War (1945). The Nationalist government was in power during this time, wasn’t it?

What’s going on here? Am I missing something, or have I stumbled into an alternate universe?

In 1912, october 11th, the republic of Taiwan was established as seperate entity from mainland china by the Kwo Min Tang under the leader ship of Sun Yat Sen.

The Nationalist party did not have control of mainland china at this time and there was more people favouring the establishment of communism in china as the last emperor of the chings fell.

The ching dynasty ended with the establishment of the communist government. The nationalists moved to Taiwan. There was No government that was firmly and undeniably in a complete seat of power in the interim time.
In fact, much of China’s territories where not governed at all! At least not by a cohesive and universal type of government that we see today.

peace

Kung Lek