i go as heavy as i can for 3 sets of 3
drop some weight 2 sets of 6 - 8
drops some weight 2 sets of 6 - 8
drop to about half the weight from my first set and go 2 sets until exhaustion.
i do two exercises for each body part, two body parts and foreamrs per session.
my goal is mass right now. this leaves me sore for about 3 days so i figure i’m getting the desired effect, but i wanted to see if any of you had any opinions about lifting like this.
where’s my beer?
7 sets is too much. If you want do one or two warm-up sets then start with your highest weight and drop weight for the next two sets to keep it within the 6-8 rep range. So 1 or 2 warmups and 3 working sets should be good. You probably aren’t making significant gains in your 6th and 7th sets…just overtraining somewhat.
My most repeated line on this entire forum:
If you want mass, EAT MORE 
(But I’m sure you knew that, I’m just reminding you)
Remember, 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight per day. Don’t listen to people like Kairo who say you don’t need protein to build muscle. Instead, pick up a biology book, and observe that protein and muscle are the same thing
As for 7 sets my be a bit too much, but if you insist on doing that much, do it like this, and for compound movements like bench press:
1 set, warm up
2 sets going up
1 set with top weight for that workout
3 coming down sets.
But seriously, that is a lot of sets. If you do this much for bench, don’t do any more chest exercises that workout. Try a split like this:
Chest/Tri/front and middle delts together
Back/Bi/forearms
Legs
That’s a three day per week workout.
I’m gonna end now before my computer freezes.
Iron
shite, i forgot something:
drop to about half the weight from my first set and go 2 sets until exhaustion
You don’t need this. The more I learn about weight lifting, the more I realize going to failure is pointless. I mean, it FEELS like you’re working hard, but to your body there’s not much difference.
For strength, they dont’ go to failur
For mass, you don’t HAVE to. Lee Priest, for example, never trains to failure. He’s one big mofo. Just stop a rep or two before failure.
Size comes from overall muscle fiber usage, not going to failure.
Remember, less rest between sets for size. I would say no more than 1:30 to two minutes between sets if you’re going for size.
Iron
Here’s where not going to failure can get you…
Sorry for such a gay looking picture, but the other one I was looking for wasn’t there
Gunned,
I’m just repeating what everyone else has said, but 7 sets is too much. Weight lifting does fall into the law of diminishing returns (more work, less gains) and the curve flattens out at around 5 sets.
Personally, I do not do warm-up sets. I may spend 5 minutes doing a general warm-up to get my blood going but then I drop right in. I will say that I DO always work to positive failure and if I have a spotter, I will go to absolute failure.
We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!
7 sets is a bit too much, maybe cut out 1 or 2 sets, but more importantly is rest and diet. If your breaking down your muscles with that intense of a workout, you will need to sleep 8(at least)-10hrs anight for your muscles to properly repair themselves. Also, you should take in at least 75 grams of carbohydrates after your workout(not right after but wait for your pum to go completely down, this way your blood will not rush to your stomach to begin the digesting process. When you eat your meals, take in 30 grams of protein per sitting(this is all your body can assimilite at one time)The rest would be stored as fat.
I have to disagree with a statement Ironfist made which is less rest inbetween sets for mass-this is incorrect. His time is right at 1min30secs between sets but in theory when your building mass you want to take long rests inbetween sets, sometimes 2mins is ok. Shorter rests are for cuttin up.
Just my 2 cents from years of research and application.
Shaolin
I have to disagree with a statement Ironfist made which is less rest inbetween sets for mass-this is incorrect. His time is right at 1min30secs between sets but in theory when your building mass you want to take long rests inbetween sets, sometimes 2mins is ok. Shorter rests are for cuttin up.
Because you are a newbie here, I won’t tear you up for this, but what you said about cutting up is entirely wrong. I’ve gone into this in extensive detail in other posts before, but I’ll summarize here.
but in theory when your building mass you want to take long rests inbetween sets,
Absolutely not. For building mass you need to keep the intensity high, so you use shorter rests. Powerlifters who are going for sheer strength above all else take longer rests. A lot of powerlifters are very small… I know of one guy who is 130lbs but can deadlift over 700lbs. There’s no mass on him at all. They use long rests between sets, because mass is NOT their primary objective.
Shorter rests are for cuttin up.
Yeah, and doing situps gets rid of stomach fat, right? (Sarcasm). Listen. The amount of rest between sets makes hardly any difference in how many calories you burn per set. “Cuttin up,” as you put it, is ENTIRELY a result of body fat, which is a result of diet and cardio. The old school of thought was that higher reps with lighter weight and shorter rests was for losing body fat, but that was disproven long ago, just like they disproved the spot reduction theory as well. The only thing higher reps (10+) does is give you a pump in the gym.
So, in summary:
For mass: less rest, 5-10 reps per set depending on your genetic variance, more sets per exercise, at least 1g protein/lb of body weight, and you must eat enough to ensure a caloric surplus in your body
For strength: more rest between sets (5-10 minutes), 1-5 reps per set (depending), fewer sets per exercise, still eat enough protein, but maintaining a surplus of calories is not as important as gaining mass is not the main goal.
The nature of training for mass causes more muscle fibers to be torn, and therefore, upon consumption of adaquate protein (and other nutrients), they will be repaired grow back BIGGER than before.
On the other hand, training for power and raw strength does not tear the muscles down as much, if at all. The training is more akin to training the nervous system to be used to bearing heavier loads, and training the muscles to contract harder. In fact, since the muscle is not being torn down (by more reps and less rest in a mass workout), there is generally less soreness the next day, resulting in the ability to train big lifts like bench or squat for 5 consecutive days in a row. Try doing bench 5 days a row with a mass routine and see how overtrained and messed up you end up
Hope that clarifies things.
Iron
I agree with just about everything else u said IronFist, just I think an argument could be made for shorter rests (under a minute) keeping your heart rate up longer, and thus having some capacity for burning calories & fat. I know cardio and diet have a much greater influence on fat loss though.
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.
just I think an argument could be made for shorter rests (under a minute) keeping your heart rate up longer, and thus having some capacity for burning calories & fat.
True, resting less than a minute can be beneficial for gaining mass as well. It’s generally up to the individual to find out what works best for them. I would just say, don’t wait longer than 1:30-2:00 between sets if you’re going for mass. I wrote that last night when I was sleepy though. I’d say 0:45-1:30 for standard sets would be better. Less if you’re doing drop sets or stripping sets or whatever.
Iron
yah, i’m just gonna be working on fat loss, and maintaining strength for a while. increased strength would be nice; but i’m definitely not looking for any mass. I’ve got a decent idea of what i wanna do when i get out of here; and i’m doing my best with the situation i’ve got (jogging, calisthenics, and old 'fu forms)- but i’m still not 100% sure i’ve got the right game plan for losin flab.
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.
How often do you do cardio work? (frequency/duration) also, how is your diet?
“You ain’t got enough calcium to have a bone to pick wit me,
like a Gracie, I’ll choke a ***** out wit his own gi” - Rass Kass
Diet’s pretty bad right now; temporarily stayin at home and don’t have control over the crud my parents buy.
Cardio wise, I’ve stepped up the jogging the past few weeks. Tryin to do some kinda cardio a good 30 to 45 minutes a day; every day- but i’m just getting back into it.
When I get outta here things’ll change, i just can’t catch a d@mn break right now.
BTW-As far as what I plan to do when I get out of here, I listed it on the workout thread. My diet then will probably be mostly MRPs, protein shakes, tuna, and V8 as I plan to be eating on the run a lot. Cardio will be jump rope, forms, and some kinda running everyday- 30 min light jogs during the week & windsprints on the weekend. Oh yah, class a few times a week. Lifting will probably be big movements like squat, deadlift, and clean & press probably done with a balance of building strength & keeping up my heart rate.
Not tryin to take over the thread, maybe we should move this to the workout thread. hehe
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.
[This message was edited by Lost_Disciple on 10-06-01 at 10:40 PM.]
Slow Sets
Anyone every hear of doing slow sets? I did them with a friend. Here’s how it works. Do a weight you can normally lift around 10 times. If bench pressing let the weight go down for 5-7 seconds. When you start to push up do it SLOWLY. This should take 7-10 seconds. This works with all the sets/exercies you do. However, you probably only want to do 1-2 sets of each exercise as this tends to tire you out quickly. We would do this for two weeks and then go back to various types of set weight training (3sets of 10 or 12 with increasing weights etc.).
Please somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought you were suppose to change your work out routine every few weeks to shock your muscules and help yourself get over any stagnation you may be heading for.
I’m not a power lifter nor am I built for it or have the desire (nor time) to do that. This is just some ideas I’ve come across. My friend had some got results, yours may vary.
Good luck. Hope this helps a little. 
Iron,
I will put your philosiphy to the test. I have used my formula for 6 years and went from 160LBS to 205LBS in about 3 of those years using mine. NOt to be boisterous, just to let you know that this was not an overnight theory. I am eager to try your theory though to see if it yields better results. Is there any literature I can read that has these principals stated.
Let me know,
Thanks,
Shaolin
“A man who thinks he knows it all, leaves no room for improvement”
Which piece of info did you need more info about?
As for longer rests being used for powerlifters, you can find info on that just about anywhere. The westside barbell guys. Pavel Tsatsouline. Zatsiorsky.
About diet being the key element in getting “cut,” I can’t hink of any off the top of my head, by I assure you the guys at www.anabolicextreme.com could point you in the right direction. There may even be some articles over there as well.
What else did you want specifics on?
Keep in mind, the methods I listed are just what I believe to be the optimal paths for achieving those goals. Obviously, you will see results if you are lifting weights, you just might not be seeing as good of results as your genetic potential would allow under different training conditions.
But, as for the higher reps for cutting up, there is absolutely no research that supports this theory, with the exception of 1950’s rumors You still see fat people doing 1000’s of situps to no avail.
Iron
OK Ironfist,
You seem to be very well versed in weightlifting. Heres a problem I cant seem to solve with my training. Any input is of course, welcome.
4 nights a week I go from work to the gym for an hour, now trying Ironfists low rep, little rest between sets work out. I eat 4 times before the gym(small meals) and 1 very small snack before training. After the gym I get about a 25-30 min rest in my car before training for 2 hours. Training is very cardio oriented, Im basically dripping sweat the whole way through.
My problem is I have lost 25lbs of muscle since I started kung fu. Its hard to eat anything big after the gym like I should coz then Im too full to train. I know that 2 hours of training puts my muscles in a breaking down mode because I do not feed them correctly after the gym. Also during training and sparring my heartrate is way above target which means IUm either burning fat or muscle or both.
My feeling is that I need to eat more after the gym in order to put weight on. Can you see any way top tweek what I am currently doing in order to promote weight gain. I think Ive heard it all being in the weight game for along time, but am open to any new ideas.
Thanks,
Shaolin
now trying Ironfists low rep, little rest between sets work out.
I never said mix low reps with little rest If I did say that it was a typo. Litte rest goes with 8-12 reps for 4-6 sets, and that’s for mass. The Low reps thing is with huge weights and long rests. You can’t optimize mass andstrength in the same workout cycle. With mass, you will gain strength, but if you do a purely strength workout you won’t gain mass but you’ll get stronger than you would otherwise.
Training is very cardio oriented, Im basically dripping sweat the whole way through.
-and-
My problem is I have lost 25lbs of muscle since I started kung fu.
This is as it should be. Weight is lost when calories are burned. Kung Fu is vey aerobic. Obviously, by burning the amount of calories that you are burning by practicing kung fu, you are going to lose weight. There is a saying in bodybuilding: “Don’t run when you can walk, don’t walk when you can stand, don’t stand when you can sit, and if you can sit you might as well take a nap,” meaning that by burning the LEAST calories possible you will gain the MOST size possible.
Its hard to eat anything big after the gym like I should coz then Im too full to train.
Huh? You mean if you eat after a weightlifting session you are too full to train kung fu, right? Why not eat after kung fu? You don’t sound like you’re leaving much time between the gym (weights) and kung fu trianing. Perhaps do them on alternate days?
I know that 2 hours of training puts my muscles in a breaking down mode because I do not feed them correctly after the gym.
Dude you gotta eat after you work out. Protein is your friend. 1g per pound of bodyweight, per day.
My feeling is that I need to eat more after the gym in order to put weight on.
Not just after the gym, but always.
Can you see any way top tweek what I am currently doing in order to promote weight gain.
I don’t know how often you train, and how often you lift, but you might want to alternate them. That would give you more time to eat, and not feel too rushed and full after a meal. If you don’t have that much time to eat, try more calorie rich meals (ie. pizza instead of grilled chicken breast).
Weight training for mass and kung fu are hard to combine. First, training for mass leaves one sore, which doesn’t lend itself well to kung fu training. Second, training for mass requires a surplus of calories in the body, while kung fu promotes weight loss.
Bodybuilding is kind of a lifestyle. And success to some extent is dependant upon genetics. For some people, they can eat like crap and still put on a ton of size. For others, they can eat 5,000 calories a day and not gain a pound. While it’s possible to add muscle to anyone’s frame, the amount that can be added without making some hardcore lifestyle changes might not be that much. Don’t forget, that mass beyond a point will affect your health. Pro bodybuilders are some of the most unhealthy people in the world; many of them can barely walk across the stage without wheezing and running out of breath. Additionally, it takes a certain kind of drive to force feed yourself the amount of food required each day to make your caloric goals.
I think you may need to reevaluate your goals… honestly, unless you’re a genetic freak, you’re not going to be able to carry a ton of muscle and still actively perform kung fu. I mean, you can still build muscle and look good for the ladies, but you’re not going to be a Ronnie Coleman who does 2 hours of kung fu per day
One more diet note I forgot above. Unless you’re on drugs, you can’t build muscle and lose fat at the same time, so don’t be concerned with “eating healthy” if you’re trying to bulk up. There’s a reason bodybuilders get fat in the off season; it’s because that’s the most effecient way to put on as much muscle as possible. Then for a show, they diet off the fat and retain as much muscle as possible.
If you are naturally skinny (ectomorph), any muscle you put on will look good because of you’re naturally low body fat. Some ecto’s can eat whatever they want and still have a six pack. If you’re fatter, then you still may want to watch your fat intake, as you don’t want to put on even more fat.
I gotta go study for a test. Hope I helped. If you have any more questions, let me know.
Iron
[This message was edited by IronFist on 10-09-01 at 06:45 PM.]
Thanks for the elaborate explanation Iron, I heard from you what I have been battling in my head for so long. Do I want to train kung fu and obviously be skinnier or do I want to go back to being (kinda big). Im very torn over this question because I want to excel in both areas. The info you have supplied has given me a better plan for balancing the 2. Im just so used to being one of the bigger guys in the gym and now, this is not true. My choice is obvious-Kung Fu will be my main focus, it is an art and a fighting skill, something you can take to the grave with you. Kung Fu leaks into other aspects of your life that Lights the path to self exploration, it is the light that shows us the way to a more fulfilled life, enlightenment. I wouldnt give it up for the world.
Well, back to negotiating
Thanks again,
Shaolin36
“you will need to sleep 8(at least)-10hrs anight for your muscles to properly repair themselves.”
if that’s true im screwed . .. .
is it??
where’s my beer?
