[QUOTE=LFJ;1265756]And again, I don’t use pun-sau to fight. This question is as ignorant as asking what use SNT has against BJJ, since they can easily take you down.
It’s a stage of development only, not fighting. If you are progressing through free sparring and fighting and understand what you’re doing in pun-sau you won’t ask this question.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know LFJ, seems like a legitmate quesiton to me. Chi Sao is training. If you are always training at that intermediate range that is neither close in or at boxing distance, then your Chi Sao may not be training you very well to deal with those distances. It seems to me that’s all Hendrik is saying.
“Counterpoint” is often a debating term. Debating has rules and judges.
A different analytical point- tan, bong and fook are three major families of motions- each family has many children- they cover
all dimensions and directions. And of course wing chun in application is a two handed system- so bong on one side can be accompanied by a wu or a kuen
on the other side for balanced issuing of force.[/QUOTE]
An actual reply is all I meant. No need to get technical. Its seems too often lately that you post simply to say someone else is wrong, rather than contribute to the discussion and say WHY you think they are wrong.
[B]Kei is vertical way of using the part of the arm as bong is horizontal way.
Kei and bong cover the “+” . Thus, with both of them, it is a balance coverage. At least the 1848 YKSLT data point it is a balance one .
Kei is a vertical elbow type of arm where bong is horizontal wing elbow. Kei is pressing forward vertically while bong is pressing forward horizontally.[/B]
Cool! That sounds exactly like the KLPS “Sao Sao” or “cover hand.” But how does that factor into either the modern or the ancient Chi Sao platforms?
[B]As for 1848 data point,
The attach photo is Zhao Yang , it is not Tan but now a day many called it tan.
So, there are kei, zhao yang, tan. They represent different mechanics
Tan is hand at chest level travel from chest outward , zhao yang is end up in shoulder level, starting from lower chest level with kind of 45degree forward and upward. Kei is pressing forward with some rotation[/B]
Zhao yang does not sound familiar to me. I’m still not sure how it is different from Tan? Or…is it the “Tok Sao” that some lineages refer to? Does it lift forward and upward using the palm rather than the outside edge of the forearm?
[B]"Starts with the modern platform and then it switches into the ancient range " type of platform is what I mean.
It is not an ancient huen sau platform but it is no longer the modern platform which keep a barrier infront of ones body, (barrier as in the two pictures in the beginning of this thread. Which keep one away from moving close into the opponent body)[/B]
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265743]The attach photo is Zhao Yang , it is not Tan but now a day many called it tan.
Tan is hand at chest level travel from chest outward , zhao yang is end up in shoulder level, starting from lower chest level with kind of 45degree forward and upward. Kei is pressing forward with some rotation[/QUOTE]
Yeah, this Zhao yang shape and its ‘mechanics’ are known to me…but we just call it Tan sao.
That’s not how the elbow is used in the system I study. It’s like a whole different martial art concept.
Elbows down and connected with the hips. That’s how to generate good power in a strike and how to maintain good structure to transmit and receive force. I can’t say how different that is from what you are doing.
If you look at the structure as imposed “rules”, you are looking at chi-sau as a form of (unrealistic) sparring. That is a game. The less structure there is, the more you’re just doing unrealistic sparring (playing a game).
There may be some truth to that. But also consider that the more structured it is, the more things have to “fit” with that structure. The things that “fit” with that structure are Wing Chun techniques. Granted, there are plenty of attributes you can develop training with a fellow Wing Chun partner, but at the end of the day Wing Chun technique is not what you will have to deal with in a real situation. So to me, the more “open-ended” the better!
Specific skill development, not free fight training.
If you are always training at that intermediate range that is neither close in or at boxing distance, then your Chi Sao may not be training you very well to deal with those distances. It seems to me that’s all Hendrik is saying.
Yeah, well, no sh!t. It’s not meant to be fight training. If you understand the training process and aren’t stuck at that stage of development, this question won’t come to mind. It’s like saying SNT isn’t practical because your susceptible to takedowns.
I still fight like I train though, because free sparring is part of the process for me. You’ll fight the way you do with increased pressure, and that comes in free sparring, not chi-sau. So why look at chi-sau in terms of practicality? Just like training SNT, it’s a specific skill development at a certain stage, not free sparring or the way you’re going to fight when the pressure is high.
I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind, so I understand why he would ask that question… but then again I don’t. Facing BJJ or Boxing has likely never been a concern of his.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265767]but at the end of the day Wing Chun technique is not what you will have to deal with in a real situation. So to me, the more “open-ended” the better![/QUOTE]
For me, free sparring is where the day ends!
Chi-sau, whatever form, isn’t fighting and that’s not why we do it. If we want to work with what has to be dealt with in a real situation, we shouldn’t be talking about chi-sau but should be free sparring. Chi-sau is just where we go to develop certain skills and correct errors revealed under pressure in sparring, just like the basic training forms.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265768]Specific skill development, not free fight training.
I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind, so I understand why he would ask that question… but then again I don’t. Facing BJJ or Boxing has likely never been a concern of his.[/QUOTE]
Hendrik has done kyokushin karate and therefore sparring.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1265771]Hendrik has done kyokushin karate and therefore sparring.[/QUOTE]
That won’t help you understand the development process of Wing Chun from SNT to fighting. It’s a newb’ question he’s asking about the practicality of the chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265773]That won’t help you understand the development process of Wing Chun from SNT to fighting. It’s a newb’ question he’s asking about the practicality of the chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, whatever dude! :rolleyes: You said “I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind” Now you are told that isn’t true and its still not good enough. I have the feeling it wouldn’t matter what anyone here said.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265764]Really? Who have you been watching doing YMWCK Luk Sao, because that still doesn’t look any different to me![/QUOTE]
Keith when it comes to YMWC, I’ve seen quite a bit, please post one clip of YMWC where they are controlling above the elbow in chi sao in in that clip, usually YMWC play luk sao using their arms as a “barrier” like Hendrik mentioned in the beginning of this thread, which doesn’t allow close body range.
Zhao yang does not sound familiar to me. I’m still not sure how it is different from Tan? Or…is it the “Tok Sao” that some lineages refer to? Does it lift forward and upward using the palm rather than the outside edge of the forearm?
[/QUOTE]
Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn’t block side way.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265773]That won’t help you understand the development process of Wing Chun from SNT to fighting. It’s a newb’ question he’s asking about the practicality of the chi-sau structure in reality against BJJ and Boxing.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100% with you Hendrik doesn’t know anything about Wck at all.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265768]Specific skill development, not free fight training.
Yeah, well, no sh!t. It’s not meant to be fight training. If you understand the training process and aren’t stuck at that stage of development, this question won’t come to mind. It’s like saying SNT isn’t practical because your susceptible to takedowns.
I still fight like I train though, because free sparring is part of the process for me. You’ll fight the way you do with increased pressure, and that comes in free sparring, not chi-sau. So why look at chi-sau in terms of practicality? Just like training SNT, it’s a specific skill development at a certain stage, not free sparring or the way you’re going to fight when the pressure is high.
I doubt Hendrik has ever done free sparring or fighting of any kind, so I understand why he would ask that question… but then again I don’t. Facing BJJ or Boxing has likely never been a concern of his.[/QUOTE]
You are right!
Hendrik is like this guy in the picture. He doesn’t even exist in real world.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265799]Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn’t block side way.
[QUOTE]
What is the purpose/function of Zhao yang, is it to establish contact like a man sau? or to cover the high gates which tan sao can’t?
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265807][QUOTE=Hendrik;1265799]Zhao yang is a fujian white crane inheritance which relate to zhao yang momentum. See attached
One can see these in fujian white crane similar to the side outward block , but instead it cut into the center line for Wck. Since Wck doesn’t block side way.
What is the purpose/function of Zhao yang, is it to establish contact like a man sau? or to cover the high gates which tan sao can’t?
Zhao yang is just today so called high tan sau , it is use in center line capture or entering. Most of today Wck tan sau is zhao yang. While the original tan sau not often seen.
Tan sau is used in a different way as the above video shows
