the following platform from Alan Orr or Robert Chu is what is realistic. Thus Alan can use it in mma . IMHO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3V4P-5nN0&feature=youtube_gdata
Kpm,
The question is what skill is Wck good at?
How to face, bjj close body, western boxing long fist, and the spm center door hard impact as the following YouTube ? What is the advantage? Or just to be able to parr and handle them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhvZjvTZeUE&feature=youtube_gdata
I think the Alan Or platform is a more realistic one. Imho
[QUOTE=KPM;1265688]Is the modern Wck structure and chi sau platform evolution from ancient the circle chi sau platform is a problem in reality?
As maybe being one of the few here that have done Chi Sao from both platforms, I have formed some impressions of my own. To me, what Hendrik is calling the “modern” Chi Sao platform (meaning the one used in YMWCK and YKSWCK) is more structured and has more of an “up and down” energy…lift to Bong, drop to Tan. This “structured” quality ends up making it a game in and of itself for a lot of people. Because it is structured there are many things you can do in Chi Sao that don’t work in a real exchange. I’m sure everyone has seen a student or instructor that looked great doing Chi Sao but couldn’t spar worth anything! Or vice versa, the student that could kick everyone’s butt in sparring but was lousy at Chi Sao. I think that for too many schools or lineages there is TOO much emphasis on Chi Sao. I think this is because it lends itself so well to being a “sparring game” of a sort in and of itself that ends up having little to do with reality. It tends to be too structured! The techniques that work within this platform are Wing Chun techniques. This version of Chi Sao is the height of development of Wing Chun guy fighting another Wing Chun guy. Is that what you are training for? How many thugs you might encounter on the street are going to be using Wing Chun techniques?
On the other hand, the “ancient circle” platform that Hendrik mentions is the Chi Sao you typically see from the other mainland styles. Southern CMA’s other than Wing Chun use it as well. It is more “generic.” Heck, I had a friend years ago that was a 6th black belt in Kenpo before I ever trained KLPSWCK and learned this platform. But they use a version of it in Kenpo and he and I used to do Chi Sao together all the time using it. This platform is less structured and more “open-ended.” It circles side to side rather than going up and down. The more refined version actually “coils” as much as it circles. I agree with Hendrik that it doesn’t “hold structure” as much as the “modern” platform. Because it is less structured there is less “gamesmanship” involved in practicing from here. It is much more of just a carrier motion to put you into contact with the opponent and go from there. As Hendrik noted, the other platform creates more of a barrier that the partner has to penetrate. This in itself creates much of the Chi Sao-specific gamesmanship that we see with the “modern” platform. And therefore it also tends to keep each partner at a wider distance.
Is one platform better than the other? I guess that depends on what your goal is for training. But I do think that the “ancient” platform potentially leads to more realistic technique application and attribute development than the “modern” platform, simply because it is less structured and more open-ended. Actually, you could grab a buddy that is a boxer show him the basics of the “ancient” platform in about 2 minutes and he could roll with you and actually attempt some boxing technique. Can you say the same about the “modern” platform?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265695]the following platform from Alan Orr or Robert Chu is what is realistic. Thus Alan can use it in mma . IMHO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3V4P-5nN0&feature=youtube_gdata[/QUOTE]
The irony here is that what Alan is teaching in that clip is exactly what I was also talking about in the other thread - striking and controlling, close body work, bridge work, playing a Chi Kiu strategy and in the range that requires, etc.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265692]Perfect example of raping pun-sau. They are neither rolling properly nor using it properly. Trying to fight like this is complete nonsense and utterly useless.[/QUOTE]
Agreed total misrepresentation of good Poon Sao platform this was a complete nonsense, & only hitting the body why bother:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265690]IMHO,
if I might using the following public YouTube as an example, the modern platform typical lead one to stay in a region as mention in my two pictures above.
Too far for close body stick, to short for long fist distance . End up chasing hand and most are hand play .
So where is Wck advantage skill? beside playing Wck game and see who is faster or both crush in and exchange fire .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8WLqmyT3UI&feature=youtube_gdata[/QUOTE]
Interesting video! Note how they start out with the “modern” platform and after the 3 count and the “go!” they essentially abandon it and almost end up in the “ancient” platform by default!
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265689]I don’t know. I see a lot more people playing “tag” with that type. Doesn’t appear to have a lot to do with practical development.
The structure of pun-sau is exactly what should make it less open to “gamemanship” because it serves a specific developmental purpose. It turns into a game by those who don’t understand that purpose and use it as a fight simulation.
I could never do the circling thing because it’s all wrists; exactly what we aim to train away from the beginning of the system, starting with SNT, bringing the mind back to the elbow.[/QUOTE]
Well, I don’t know what you’ve seen. But it shouldn’t be “all wrists.” You don’t do a Huen Sau with just the wrist do you? The circling/rolling action should come from the elbows connected to the hips.
In this clip starting at about 30 seconds in these guys are doing a decent job of rolling. This is the little bit more refined version that “coils” that I mentioned. Notice that the movement appears to be at the wrists, but there is elbow behind it connected to the hips. Just because the elbow isn’t going up and down like the “modern” platform doesn’t mean the elbow doesn’t have a role in driving things. As far as “playing tag”, I’ve seen that equally often in either platform. The guys below look like they are playing tag at times. That’s just because they are going slow and indicating openings rather than really trying to nail each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XQ0j53-0zE
How can increased structure lead to less gamesmanship? Its like any activity, the more rules you impose the more specific things people attempt to “work” the rules. The more structured something is the less “open-ended” it becomes. But I do agree it shouldn’t be a fight simulation.
[QUOTE=BPWT..;1265697]The irony here is that what Alan is teaching in that clip is exactly what I was also talking about in the other thread - striking and controlling, close body work, bridge work, playing a Chi Kiu strategy and in the range that requires, etc.[/QUOTE]
Precisely! And all of this is what we DIDN’T see in that MMA clip he posted! Have we seen it in any of the MMA clips?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265692]Perfect example of raping pun-sau. They are neither rolling properly nor using it properly. Trying to fight like this is complete nonsense and utterly useless.[/QUOTE]
They are doing thier best with the platform they have.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265696]Kpm,
The question is what skill is Wck good at?
How to face, bjj close body, western boxing long fist, and the spm center door hard impact as the following YouTube ? What is the advantage? Or just to be able to parr and handle them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhvZjvTZeUE&feature=youtube_gdata
I think the Alan Or platform is a more realistic one. Imho[/QUOTE]
What “Alan Orr platform” are you talking about Hendrik? Alan is using the “modern” rolling platform like every other Yip Man WCK lineage. He’s just saying that one shouldn’t stay at that range, but should use the rolling platform to create the opportunity to close in and take control.
And I’m not sure what you are asking or suggesting in your above post. 
[QUOTE=KPM;1265700]Interesting video! Note how they start out with the “modern” platform and after the 3 count and the “go!” they essentially abandon it and almost end up in the “ancient” platform by default![/QUOTE]
This platform stuffs can be analogy as driving in the icy back road say Lake Tahoe .
The platform is like is it a two wheel drive or a all wheel drive.
Driving skill sure matter, but either it is a two or a four wheel drive platform set the boundary or the limit.
A junior driver can drive a four wheel drive in the icy road safely. While a senior driver with good driving skill is struggling with a two wheel drive.
So, it is more a what technology platform one is using then personal skill.
This also is a problem in common Chinese martial art instruction as if one keep practice SNT , some days who knows when magic will happen , and no one know what type of magic to expect.
Vesus
the western scientific way of get to the bottom line to make sure the seven bows function like a four wheel drive to begin with, expect result in a few days and not exepecting magic at all , but better and better seven bows handling as the realistic expectation.
So, the idea is not who is better who’s skill is more advance, but focus on what type of platform is that ? Because the platform define the limits or boundary of whether it can do it job?
[QUOTE=KPM;1265704]What “Alan Orr platform” are you talking about Hendrik? Alan is using the “modern” rolling platform like every other Yip Man WCK lineage. He’s just saying that one shouldn’t stay at that range, but should use the rolling platform to create the opportunity to close in and take control.
And I’m not sure what you are asking or suggesting in your above post. [/QUOTE]
I am referring to Alan switching platform type as the above utube.
His platform in play is no longer the common modern platform .
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265708]I am referring to Alan switching platform type as the above utube.
His platform in play is no longer the common modern platform .[/QUOTE]
Then what platform is it? Maybe you need to describe what you mean by “platform”?
[QUOTE=KPM;1265709]Then what platform is it? Maybe you need to describe what you mean by “platform”?[/QUOTE]
Ok.
IMHO, Alan or Robert is using a CSL dynamic platform which is no longer the modern generic Wck platform.
And this platform is rely on CSL power generation which is a seven bows based technology.
So, explicitly, it might looks generic in the beginning, but while in action it is a different type.
Csl dynamic platform can be analog to a four wheel drive for all range play, while genetic platform is a two wheel drive bounded by its structure and power generation for barrier range play.
The cars looks similar but not under the hood. If Csl doesn’t have their special engine, it cannot go into a certain range.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265710]Ok.
while genetic platform is a two wheel drive bounded by its structure and power generation for barrier range play.
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Hendrik is entitled to his views. But my considered opinion is that there is no “genetc” (generic?) platform.
There are many varied “platforms” depending on lineage and teacher and student.
Hendrik’s analyses is full of straw man models which he criticizes. Watching lots of videos can create a false reality as well.
But then again- each to his own.
I personally believe the luk sao modern chi sao platform was intended to be a two-man san sik drill to develop the structure and energy of Bong, Tan, fuk sao, and gan or Kei depending on linage, much like the bong lap sao drill, and not a freestyle chi sao platform. The freestyle chi sao platform should be the circling hands platform where everything previously learnt are integrated including all the two-man san sik drills.
However in my opinion the integrated whole body power generation is more important than any platform. If one has the correct power generation, the platform is secondary, and does not matter too much. But all wing chun should be performed at close range regardless of the platform. In YKSWC luk sao is performed closer in than in YMWC to develop elbow range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aKH0uAFst0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIUcjt6skLw
IMHO,
Just Tan bong fook is not complete , these three doesn’t fully cover the 3D or "+ " .
It needs to have two couple or four technics cover four type of momentum to cover the “+” with the middle of the + is the center
And they are :
tan, spread
Kei, vertical.
Bong and kie are couple. Bong without kei is missing one element.
the 1848 YKSLT kuit says:
Ya2
Spiral downward then up turn into the vertical elbow wing.
Ya4
Wing elbow bending waist visit (the opponent ) under the flow
