[QUOTE=mkriii;860317]Sure, when we would go to tournaments he would surprise you at the last minute and tell you to do a different form than what you had been practicing. For example, you might be thinking your going to do a simple tiger form and then right before you go before the judges to perform he would tell you do a monkey form even though you don’t know monkey. He did this more with weapons though. You’d think your going to do a staff or spear and then at the last moment give you some off the wall weapon to do like a battle ax or a trident or a hook spear. He would do this to see how well you act under pressure and to see how you handle that weapon becuase he might be thinking about training you more in that particular weapon or style. I hope that I explained it a little bit more clearly. :)[/QUOTE]
In a public performance he would tell you to do a style that you have never trained in like monkey? So you would then jump around and do a monkey form the way that you think a monkey form should be done?
[QUOTE=Judge Pen;860393]In a public performance he would tell you to do a style that you have never trained in like monkey? So you would then jump around and do a monkey form the way that you think a monkey form should be done? [/QUOTE]
Yep, crazy isn’t it? He didn’t do that all the time but ocationally, he did it more so with weapons though. Talk about feeling wierd and scared, like a fish out of water. He would say in his broken English “just do it” but it came out sounding like “jus duweet”. Its funny looking back on it but scary back then. He definitely had his own way of teaching.
Some of Grandmaster Ng’s training exercises really seemed crazy at the time. He had this one training exercise for snake style that was called “snake poll training”. It reminded me of the exercises in the movie with Jackie Chan. We had this poll that was about 6 1/2 to 7 feet tall and about 4 inches around in diameter. What you do is you cup your hand around the back of the poll at shoulder or ear level and flip it over your shoulder bringing your hand thats cupping it down to about your waist level, and then bring your hand back up to cup it again by your head before it falls. This exercise serves several perposes…One, it developes wrist strength. Two, it developes speed in your hands. Three, it teaches you how to use your hands to wrap around your opponent. Some other exercises and stuff is we would do dive rolls over milk crates and finger tip push ups. Grandmaster Ng also had an obstacle course behind the school in some wooded area that we would have to run, things like crossing a log bridge and climbing a tree and swinging on a rope. This would be like a warm up before class. In the back of the school gym (which was like a big warehouse building made of metal) there was a big thick rope that we had to climb. We had to hang from the rafters for minutes which seemed like an eternity when your 16 years old and your 25 feet above the ground, It was high. We had sparring sessions where we would sparr blind folded or we would sparr 2 or 3 on 1. It was deffinitely an experience (a good one).
[QUOTE=mkriii;860441]Some of Grandmaster Ng’s training exercises really seemed crazy at the time. He had this one training exercise for snake style that was called “snake poll training”. It reminded me of the exercises in the movie with Jackie Chan. We had this poll that was about 6 1/2 to 7 feet tall and about 4 inches around in diameter. What you do is you cup your hand around the back of the poll at shoulder or ear level and flip it over your shoulder bringing your hand thats cupping it down to about your waist level, and then bring your hand back up to cup it again by your head before it falls. This exercise serves several perposes…One, it developes wrist strength. Two, it developes speed in your hands. Three, it teaches you how to use your hands to wrap around your opponent. Some other exercises and stuff is we would do dive rolls over milk crates and finger tip push ups. Grandmaster Ng also had an obstacle course behind the school in some wooded area that we would have to run, things like crossing a log bridge and climbing a tree and swinging on a rope. This would be like a warm up before class. In the back of the school gym (which was like a big warehouse building made of metal) there was a big thick rope that we had to climb. We had to hang from the rafters for minutes which seemed like an eternity when your 16 years old and your 25 feet above the ground, It was high. We had sparring sessions where we would sparr blind folded or we would sparr 2 or 3 on 1. It was deffinitely an experience (a good one).[/QUOTE]
Aside from the pole exercises, nothing you described was not done as part of my formal training in SD. Obstacle courses. Diving and rolling over objects. Finger-tip push ups?–a dozen different varieties. Blindfold sparring 6 on 1 at one point. And all of that was with my first teacher prior to moving to Tennessee. Heck 2 on 1 sparring is routine in my classes and a mandatory part of testing.
Fun things to enhance your training and shake them up. I don’t know how I feel about the forms bait and switch. I don’t really think its fair to the student because if they don’t know monkey, then whatever they came up with wouldn’t be monkey, would it? But I have had my teacher do things to see how I would respond under “pressure” so I understand the concept even if I don’t agree with the methodology.
[QUOTE=Judge Pen;860458]
Fun things to enhance your training and shake them up. I don’t know how I feel about the forms bait and switch. I don’t really think its fair to the student because if they don’t know monkey, then whatever they came up with wouldn’t be monkey, would it? But I have had my teacher do things to see how I would respond under “pressure” so I understand the concept even if I don’t agree with the methodology.[/QUOTE]
The thing with the form though is at an open circuit tournament the judges aren’t going to know if it’s a legit form or not because more than not they are going to be shotokan karate or Ishen Ryu Karate or some other karate style so it was funny when (and it happened a few times) one of us would win 1st or 2nd place with a made up form. If you were a good B.S.ter and a good actor you could pull it off. Also this let him see what you think about this particular style and helps him decide wheather he thinks it right for you.
[QUOTE=Judge Pen;860460]I thought this thread was for former Ng students. Why aren’t more posting here?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know why more aren’t posting. I wish they would though.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;859537]What is this talk about your Bagua not really being Bagua? I read somewhere one time that you guys call it Bagua, but the real name is Divine Boxing or something…
My sifu always calls it Baqua. I don’t know what this devine whatever is. I’ll check and find out though, see if my sifu (John Dufresne) knows. When I find out from him I’ll post it A.S.A.P.
You got me curious about it. I saw something refering to Hsing I called devine crushing fist but nothing in regards to Baqua. I’ll check it out though.
[QUOTE=Shane;860483]I study Ng Family Bagua and I’m pretty sure I remember the thread that you read this on. Some of the older names for Baguazhang were turning palm or rotating palm. In one of the early English language books on Bagua (I think it’s Robert Smith’s book, but I could be wrong) somewhere in there somebody (Maybe Dong, Hai-quan, again, I can’t remember) is quoted as saying they learned a divine style of boxing. Eventually people started calling the art Baguazhang. All common knowledge. I think whoever posted that got these things sort of muddled up and misinterpreted them. I remember reading that when it was posted, but I didn’t care enough to say anything. Our Baguazhang is Baguazhang.
To answer another question, our style of Baguazhang is not Gao style Baguazhang. It’s Jiang, Rongqiao style, heavily influenced by Six Harmony Fist and Monkey Boxing. It’s called linear Baguazhang just because we don’t practice our forms on the circle. We still circle walk, just not during our forms.
Shane[/QUOTE]
Finally another Ng member…lol. Yes I just started learning monkey Baqua a while back. Me and Mark Bugher and a girl named Lilly went to whitesburg and John showed us the begginings of it. It’s really cool. I hope to learn more of it. But there were a few here on this forum that were asking the origins of some of “our” (meaning Ng style) stuff and could not answer it with certainty. All I know is most of it came from his grandfather, am I correct on that much? Where did his grandfather learn it?
Shane, where are you from and when did you study under John Ng? I studied for three years at four seasons (1985-1988) then under Dufresne since 1989 to present. There is a lot of history that I do not know about our stuff. The info about our snake was really interesting to me. Do you have any other info on anything. Since my teach (John Dufresne) moved back to Boston I don’t get the chance to ask him very much unless it’s through e-mail. Please inform me. Thanks, Mark R.
[QUOTE=mkriii;860464]The thing with the form though is at an open circuit tournament the judges aren’t going to know if it’s a legit form or not because more than not they are going to be shotokan karate or Ishen Ryu Karate or some other karate style so it was funny when (and it happened a few times) one of us would win 1st or 2nd place with a made up form. If you were a good B.S.ter and a good actor you could pull it off. Also this let him see what you think about this particular style and helps him decide wheather he thinks it right for you.
[/QUOTE]
If that were the case, then you weren’t going to a very high quality tournament with knowledgeable judges. Try that at the Taiji legacy and see what happens.
[QUOTE=Shane;860502]The structure is going to be different for each branch. The branches basically begin with Dr. Ng. He was a professional martial artist all through his youth, and had the time and inclination to learn a few complete styles, huge chunks of a few more, and bits and pieces of several others. Most of his students, however, did useless stuff like go to college, have families, get jobs, etc. So since they didn’t all have time to learn everything, he taught everybody different stuff from his repertoire. Pretty much everybody that I’ve met got a little taste of everything, but they also all had their specialty and in most cases they learned that one complete system and the other stuff was just extra. A few of them got more than one complete system.
Shane[/QUOTE]
Thanks Shane. I was curious because this “patchwork” style of learning and teaching has been criticized and I was wondering how an Ng student avoided the pitfalls of the fundamentals of different styles running together. As you said, it would be easier if you were a full time student, but those with families and jobs might have a tougher row to hoe.
I’m also curious about your BaGua. The form of BaGua that I know is also a version of Jiang Rongqiao’s. With Ng students, is the style initially taught with the circle walking, and that part is phased out as one progresses in understanding the fundamentals of the palm changes? The reason I’m asking is that I was under the impression that the special characteristcs of BaGua were walking, the gaze, the sitting position and overturning (Dragon form, Monkey Appearance, Tiger Sitting, Eagle Overturning). The stepping should be endless, circular and flowing like a swimming dragon. How does one train JRQ form of Bagua without the circle walk?
To answer another question, our style of Baguazhang is not Gao style Baguazhang. It’s Jiang, Rongqiao style, heavily influenced by Six Harmony Fist and Monkey Boxing. It’s called linear Baguazhang just because we don’t practice our forms on the circle. We still circle walk, just not during our forms.
Shane[/QUOTE]
hi shane,
is the bagua you practice a modified version of jian rong qiao’s “original” form?
if so who modified it?
how/when did it come into your system?
is there video of this “linear” form online?
is it the same postures as jiang rong qiao shows in his book but done without the circle walk?
thanks for answering with any information you have.
[QUOTE=Judge Pen;860580] How does one train JRQ form of Bagua without the circle walk?[/QUOTE]
hi jp,
here is a short clip of “jrq” bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of “level training”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break
basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of “single palm change” practice.
single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.
here is a short clip of “jrq” bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of “level training”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break
basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of “single palm change” practice.
single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clip Bruce. You call that “level training” What do you mean by that? I’m not familiar with that term. Are you referring to training without the circle walk or training on different surfaces (not necessarily level)?
here is a short clip of “jrq” bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of “level training”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break
basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of “single palm change” practice.
single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.[/QUOTE]
The form without the walk and just doing the postures is called linkage in most circles…this is very good practice…similar to Hsing I linkage set…a common Baqua practice.
BQ
[QUOTE=Baqualin;860613]The form without the walk and just doing the postures is called linkage in most circles…this is very good practice…similar to Hsing I linkage set…a common Baqua practice.
BQ[/QUOTE]
Thanks BQ. I’ve “freestyled” the form often by mixing the palm changes, but I’ve never tried it without the circle walking.
[QUOTE=Judge Pen;860579]If that were the case, then you weren’t going to a very high quality tournament with knowledgeable judges. Try that at the Taiji legacy and see what happens.[/QUOTE]
No sh1t. The traditional judges at Taiji Legacy are strict. I’ve seen them disqualify people for making stuff up.
