Earth Dragon
It’s fine to use whatever, whatever is handy and however you make it. As long as it works it is okay. Potatoes come from the good earth, it is a healthy vegetable except what people put on them. Things that come from the earth are good, Earth Dragon.
What you said about Master Joiner is what you wrote. Use your wisdom and go over what you wrote. If you can’t see it that is your problem. Maybe you need glasses. Otherwise, just forget it. No harm done.
Damian
A article on palm training
Just my two cents -
dear damian
wow you ask me a question or for my advice then you put me down! If you think you can use whatever, whatever is handy then try some jack danniels or maybe gin no how about crown royal then go ahead and use whatever, it doesnt matter to me if your jow is not coagulated or even 100% fermented! I did as you said and used my non eyeglass wearing wisdom to look over my post but did not find any part of it that put down master joiner!again I dont know him, maybe you could help me? cut and paste the post and lets review it together. I dont mean to sound harsh but I do not like people puting words in my mouth, and I was just trying to answer slater E but I guess that was wrong of me!
If I had the choice, I’d put Bombay Sapphire…
Just some general observations.
I’m no herbalist but I have many si-hings that use jow and have used dit da jow since I was a kid.
I’ve posted about my Sifu Wing Lam’s jow before. In short, I think it’s great for bruises and a must for his type of iron palm training. As a general purpose jow and for sore muscles, I have seen better.
As for the alchol, I know several Sifu’s that use Vodka but rice wine is the traditional medium.
As for the bottle, My si-gungs Lum Jo and Chiu Wai use plastic bottles. They are famous dit da doctors with thriving practices in Hong Kong and Canada so that might say something. My guess is that it is more economic but it must not have too much of a detrimental effect if any or they wouldn’t use it.
On brewing your own, unless you are taught by someone you trust to give you the real deal, I don’t see how a recipe you get (where you have to find the herbs in the exact quantities) is any better then the proven commercial brands.
That said, stay away from a brand called 5 “somethings” (sorry, I forgot the name) It’s a very popular brand in the chinese stores and has an orange label in a clear glass bottle but I have found it nothing more then a bad perfume.
jow
hasafu brought up some very good points, the only thing Ive heard about using plastic is that it is made from oil and or petroleum based products and can have a counter effect on the base, but this is after quite a long peroid of time, but I have some jow thats over 10yrs old so I store it in 5 gallon pickle jars which work rather well. As for exact quanities I live near toronto so china town is only 2 hours away and my good freind owns a herbology store, very handy but I am lucky to have it so close, but most herbology or OMD’s weigh their formulas so there is hardly ever a problem with exact mixtures. And again it’s just a matter of preference on recipe’s or bases, just like some itailan chefs use half ripened tomatoes over full but if the sauce tastes good then eat!
Razak the Mind Boxer
That article on palm training was very informative. I truly enjoyed it and agree. In the last six months, I have included slapping a tree. I thought it to be very odd at first but it does enchance the training and I enjoy it very much. I would recommend the article for all to read.
Earth Dragon - You just don’t understand me so I would like to show you that I have no hard feelings by sending you a bottle of my jow. My email address is dfedorko@mindspring.com. Please no one else email me for a bottle of jow. Have a good day Earth Dragon.
Damia
What a loving community 
A bottle of jow for everyone on the house! j/k
<font size=“1”>“Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It’s the <font color=“blue”>‘just’</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color=“blue”>ego</font> go berserk.” - Hans Taeger</font>
Iron Palm - From Internal To External…
Once again on a serious note, and this is an item up for dispute between many high level practioners. In terms of iron palm, some would say that through the proper internal training, one can develop the iron palm without the external methods (aka slapping the tree) etc. It is unfortunate as in these methods, practioners who make even subtle errors in their training have had erroneous and costly accidents. These surmount to broken hands, knuckles, fingers, disfiguration, joint problems, arthritis etc. One may wish to spend their time cultivating the internal side of the body and in that, the iron palm development will also flourish. Although this method may take more time and energy, in the long run it may save some hardaches.
Just my opinion of course and take it for what you will. This of course is in no way a discouragement for those who practice external methods of iron palm training, just an idea that should be shed in the light as some very high level practioners are capable of iron palm feats without the rigourous external hand exercises.
<font size=“1”>“Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It’s the <font color=“blue”>‘just’</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color=“blue”>ego</font> go berserk.” - Hans Taeger</font>
thank you damian
thank you for that nice jesture! I will return the favor and send you a bottle of mine. that is very kind of you thnax
the first time I looked at my iron palm teachers hands I was amazed! I thought they would be calloused and hard like my old sensei who hit makawara boards. but they were not he explained that the conditioning is not the important part of a iron palm but the understanding of hoe to use it! again it is the chi that breaks not the force behind the strike!
has anyone seen a circular hand break? where you place the back of your palm on the brick or slab and pull your hand back and around keeping your fingertips in contact with the surface. it is a most difficult brak I have seen.
I would say that you should learn Iron Palm from a proven source. I can’t speak for hitting trees and dipping hands in hot sand, etc (since I don’t know anyone personally who has done those) but for the Iron Palm method taught by my Sifu Wing Lam, it’s very safe if you follow the precautions.
We have many si-hings that have done iron palm for over 5-10 years and they have normal looking hands and no problem having kids. I know two people who have learned mainly from the video and they are doing fine as well. I say mainly because they both came in to have Sifu check their form a few months after starting.
The biggest worry is going to fast to gravel and iron. That’s when damage can occur but with the jow, the damage is not permanent. The second biggest worry is losing concentration or trying to make up for missed days at one time.
Sifu has been doing iron palm for over 30 years. He has kids, great hands and perfect vision at 50+ years old.
Both he and my si-hings who have done the iron palm for a while can break multiple bricks (no spacers) with the palm on the top brick and rolling over keeping the pinky on the brick at a relatively slow speed, hitting the bricks with the back of the hand. This is by far the most impressive break I have ever seen. You can also hear the difference in the break. It almost has a metallic sound (ping) then a brute force break.
Just another perspective to the one Nexus gave. Your mileage may vary.
Iron Palm/hand conditioning
Im wondering how long it takes to develop iron palm or at least to a proficient level in other schools? In my school the program is generally for 40 weeks considering you train every day that period. Of course training doesnt stop there but after 40 weeks you can go silly and start breaking anything you can get with your new power packed hands, LOL
Iron Palm
Nexus -
I have tried that in my own way and I have been unsuccessful. When I would be away from home with no training aids I felt that Qigong, isotonic exercises and an Iron Palm form would be sufficient for that short period of time. Alas, when I would break I completed the break but my hand would sting which never happened. I believe that the hand should “charged”. The palm should have that good feeling and not sting after a break. Maybe what I am doing is incorrect. If you can assist and give a hint or two I would appreciate it very much.
Earth Dragon - I am waiting to hear from you.
Damia
Earth Dragon/Iron Palm Break
For what it is worth I can perform that break you mentioned. Use intent and focus in performing that break. That is what helped me.
Damian
damian
do you use the laogung? the center of the palm, and do you strike with the wave action or is it just the rotation of the palm that makes the break? I want to thank you again for your gift of bottle of jow , did you get my email? I will send a bottle of mine in return. Also I saw you do a break with a hammerfist, is this the same type of break that you usually do or are they more internal? And what’s the deal with a bottom break? are you passing the chi through all the bricks and just breaking the choosen one? sorry for so many questions
Damian. When talking about Iron Palm I must say I feel as if that is what we are doing, just talking. It is usually the experience and being shown in terms of techniques and transfer to produce any understanding of explanations. This is commonly felt by myself and fellow practioners as the internal arts are not easy to put into words.
I think the methods you use will likely bring you to a proficient and even high level in iron palm, regardless of the affect of starting externally and working towards the internal. Over time, they come together, but you must for a moment take into account that there were masters of the iron palm who were 60-70 years old who no longer had the strength to slap trees and do the external practices many do. Their iron palm came from the internal side.
On the final note, you could train iron palm for 30 years but if your martial arts were weak in other respects, such as self-defense it would be like hanging to bricks from each arm while you fight, hence, being worthless to you as an aid. It is likely you need not spend countless hours training it unless you are intending on spending twice that time training your chi kung, applications, other techniques. (You may already do this, just making a note of it.)
<font size=“1”>“Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It’s the <font color=“blue”>‘just’</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color=“blue”>ego</font> go berserk.” - Hans Taeger</font>
Earth Dragon
Truthfully, I have never heard of the term “laogung”. I am a Chen practitioner and I do a lot of Qigong and Chen silk reeling exercises. I do use the palm heart in breaking concrete and not the palm heel. Also use the hammer fist/knife hand and the back of the hand. In performing breaks I use the “Whip & Wave” theory. So you do know John Newberry. The bottom break - when you have 2 2x8x16 slabs one on top of the other. The object is to break the bottom one and leave the top slab in tact. I focus on the bottom block visualizing a happy face on the bottom of it. If you focus and use intent you will be successful. This break is the foundation of learning how to break
a particular block in a stack. I received your email and sent a reply. I believe I use Qi in all my breaks. When I did that hammerfist break my hand was only 6-8 inches above the block. I didn’t use the haymaker approach using the weight of my body if you know what I mean.
Nexus - I understand you and you are correct. Practice, practice and practice with patience. You are also correct in saying that one should not rely on the Iron Palm. If a practitioner has no technique the Iron Palm is useless to the person. The Iron Palm is but a piece of the pie.
Damia
daminan
beautiful break on the photos page! you answered my questions with the answers i was hoping for. Ive seen breaks with spacers, wood , ice, none of them impress me! what i did see was a chinese master turn his hand over and strike with the lao gung(the chinese name for the point in the center of the hand)or palm heart as you reffered anyways he broke the brike underneath and that facinated me! hew also stacked three tomatoes on top on another and struck the top one but only squished the middle one! he told us he passed his chi through the first tomato desroyed the middle one and pulled it back out before he hit the second one! that impressed me.
He also showed us a fake cocconut break but I didnt understand him, have you seen someone break a cocconut? I tried it and my hand stung!so I stopped.
do you use the same herbs as john and brain grey?
I have 5 gallons fermenting but my teachers rice wine mixture seems to be stronger, and not as sticky!
Iron palm
There is more to Iron palm, then just one formula. (Palm liniments) The practice of forms and other internal conditioning exercises must be performed prior to striking trees or palm training. When a person practice iron palm, they are gathering ching, transforming it to ch’i and then moving it into a specific part of they body, it is extremely important to have a stable, balanced, energetic body structure before iron palm or tree striking begins. And for you guys that are talking about the Ch’i Aspects,then you guys know or should know , it is important to balance the amount of Fa chin training with chi kung exercises, such as I-Ch’uan in order to accumulate energy.
The bottom line is, a good foundation is a necessity for any iron palm practice.