I hate to be the d!ck who posts the same thing in two different forums, but other people have done it before.
Alright.
I guess I made my last thread too confusing, so I made this one easier.
If you are using a wc straight punch to break a board (or a head), in which position would your hand be upon impact?
Please note that I’m not talking about any angles of the hand when viewed from the side. I’m ONLY talking about when viewed from above, as in this image.
So pick: is it 1, 2, 3, 4, or “other,” and if so, please explain.
Thanks. And please don’t answer questions other than the one I’ve asked. I’m not trying ot be a d!ck, I just want a straight forward answer.
on your other thread I thought you were asking about the bending the wrist vertically (thats why I asked for the side angle pic) but now I know you were asking about the horizontal angling of the wrist.
But when I do a wc punch I can’t get it to work with that angle. If you’re facing your target and punching to their centerline, the wrist can’t be in that angle because your shoulder is outside of your centerline and your whole arm has to come in. So it would be more like pic 3. If you wanted to maintain a straight forearm-wrist, then it would have to be like pic 4 (ouch).
I can see your dillema. edit: Changed my mind… I am assuming you are punching with your body facing the wall, without any significant twisting of the torso/shoulders. In this case I would say somewhere between 3 and 4 would look correct.
Also, your thumb placement looks a bit weird to me.. I bend it in more, so that the 2nd knuckle of your thumb touches your index finger between the second and third knuckle… I guess to an extent all this stuff is just a matter of what feels comfortable to you though…
mmm yeah your thumb does seem a little too close to your knuckles. dont want it to hit something.
as for the original question- not being a WC practitioner Im not sure. I do know however that in every style I have seen and studied, a straight inverted punch is done like pic 2. but im not sure what your dillema actually is- I can do a WC centerline punch with a straight forearm and wrist. could you post a pic of your upper body to give us an idea of the alignment (since you do wing chun this is probably something Im doing wrong and not you, but Its worth a check anyway)
Guys, the reason my thumb is in a weird place is because I took the picture with the board on the floor (see the carpet behind it?) and I had to twist my body around to be able to look through the camera lense while still trying to keep my fist on the board. Then I rotated the image so that my fist was facing upward instead of downward. It’s not actually there when I’m punching for real.
I’ll get some upper body pics in a few minutes so you guys can see more of what I mean.
Are you guys sure it’s wrong? I’ve got a bunch of examples of people using the “incorrect” bent wrist method.
If we look at this picture, it looks like he would hit the board with his pinky knuckle first. Ouch.
Yip Ching likes to punch that way, too. (Even tho Phil Redmond said it’s wrong).
Sifu Grados does straight punches like this as well. I’ve attached some frames at the bottom of this post from a Sifu Grados video taken from here. His wrist is anything but straight when viewed from above. And yes, these images are from a fully extended punch.
Look at the guy in the middle of this logo. It’s kinda small, but what’s that? Wrist turned outward!
I’ve also got various videos of WC teachers demonstrating the punch like this. I guess I could take pictures of the TV screen. I can’t hook the video up to my computer, though.
So in the mean time, please explain why all these people are doing it wrong? Are they all conspiring against me in an attempt to make me do it wrong?
IronFist, there are different types of “strait punch”. The guy you said would hit with pincky is using an inverted strait punch. Can’t speak for anyone else, but I tend to use it when I’mm gooing to miss to the outside of my target. I find it helps me make contact with first 2 knuckles better, in this sinario. Hope that helps a bit.
Originally posted by Becca
[B]Don’t meen to butt in… Sorry…
IronFist, there are different types of “strait punch”. The guy you said would hit with pincky is using an inverted strait punch. Can’t speak for anyone else, but I tend to use it when I’mm gooing to miss to the outside of my target. I find it helps me make contact with first 2 knuckles better, in this sinario. Hope that helps a bit. [/B]
^ I know. Alllllllllll I’m talking about here is wrist angle. The only reason I mentioned that pinky guy is because his wrist is absolutely straight, but he’s going to break his pinky if he hits a board like that.
ironfist – you’re missing one important fact: each of those punches are at full or near-full extension.
that may not say much alone, but as you’re learning to understand the wing chun punch, you need all the elements. at the end of the punch, some flavors of wing chun teach a bit of wrist motion – akin to c0cking the pinky forward – to add oomph to the punch. it may not sound like much, but when done at even minor speed, it is not difficult to feel the difference.
think of the punch this way:
your fist starts facing straight toward your target.
it continues to face your target travelling straight toward it as your elbow extends.
as your fist hits the target, your wrist c0cks, extending the bottom portion of the fist through the target.
understand this – the pinky knuckles do not start out further forward, as that would leave the wrist fully flexed in one direction (this, if it had to go further in that direction, it’d tweak the wrist. the wrist does this motion at the point of contact. <edit> that c0cking of the wrist continues through the target and the wrist finishes a little wonky looking. now look at the pictures, particularly of gm yip – had he a target, at that point of elbow extension his hand would have been “through” the target. thus, his wrist is a little flexed up. </edit>
think about it this way – each joint in the body can add or subtract power. weak ankles, thighs and knees give you no base or stepping/turning oomph, weak hips do the same, weak shoulders allow for no whip, weak elbows (think triceps) don’t allow for much pop on your forward extension, etc. it’s all about mechanics. you learn the basics to be able to hit, then you learn nuance so you can use little things like a wrist motion to add oomph.
like i said, not all flavors of wing chun do this, nor does wing chun have technical dibs on it.
this explain a bit more? if not, pm me and i’ll do more there or IM.
^ Again, I’m not talking about extending the bottom of the fist through the target. I know all about that. I’m talking about the fist and forearm, when viewed from above, not being in a straight line. Wrist c0cked up or not has no effect on this angle from above.
the striking surface is not the main row of knuckles, but rather the “flat” area on the fist of the bottom three fingers (between the first and second knuckle). with that in mind, i’ve been taught, and i agree with this, to line the center of that space (halfway between the first and second knuckle on each of the three lower fingers) up with the center of the forearm.
anyone who doesn’t do this … will be choked out by royce.
in no way am i responding for everyone, particularly folks that know more (maybe they know better, maybe worse, but they do know MORE) than me. i’ll stick with what works best for me against a body, a headcage, a wallbag and a focus mitt. that’s my suggestion for you – figure out what feels safest and strongest. it’s unlikely that we’ll be able to get all the masters together to hit those Bob targets at full power to see whose wrists get tweaked, so until there’s some astoundingly obvious solution, stick with what works best for you.
Ironfist..this is a case I think where just doing it yourself will get much more of a ‘good’ answer for you, vs. waiting for opinions. If you hit a heavy bag with that sucker, or even a wall pad, and start getting some power behind it over and over, especially when you get tired, you will find the alignment that works for you…then look down at your hand and see what it looks like
I’m gonna freaking shoot myself. This was not supposed to be a tough question.
rub said: the striking surface is not the main row of knuckles, but rather the “flat” area on the fist of the bottom three fingers (between the first and second knuckle).
Yes. That is where I hit with. I will illustrate this with a pic later so there is no confusion.
out what feels safest and strongest.
I’m saying, when the wrist and forearm are not in a line it obviously feels weaker than when they are. When when you’re standing infront of something and go to straight punch it in the centerline, you can’t line up your wrist and forearm like that. Instead it ends up looking like all those pics I posted of people doing it with their wrists tilted outward.
Golden Arms said: Ironfist..this is a case I think where just doing it yourself will get much more of a ‘good’ answer for you, vs. waiting for opinions. If you hit a heavy bag with that sucker, or even a wall pad, and start getting some power behind it over and over, especially when you get tired, you will find the alignment that works for you…then look down at your hand and see what it looks like
Yeah. I can hit fairly hard with it the bent wrist way. But everyone says that’s wrong. Then I post a bunch of pictures of WC teachers doing it that way and no one says anything. Well, Phil Redmond said it was still wrong, so at least he replied.
All I want is a straight answer from a few WC people. But no one can answer the f-ing question that I ask! People talk about knuckles and thumb placement and tilting the wrist up and other stuff that I didn’t ask about. Yes, those are important, but they’re irrelevent to what I’m talking about. Either I’m stupid and I can’t ask the question right, or people just can’t read. And I even post pictures to SHOW what I’m talking about, and still no one seems to get it.
I hit with the main force going through the knuckles or maybe about 3/4 inch from the plane of the top of my hand. I thought this was standard in all arts. I hit like that whether it’s with the top 2 knuckles (favored by my teacher) or the bottom three, or all four. If there’s a secret Wing Chun way to do it, I haven’t really heard about it.
Other than that, I’d say it’s not what picture to go emulate, but rather hit things like bags or rap your knuckles on a wall or piece of wood, maybe do makiwara striking or knuckle pushups whatever you can come up with, without wrist wraps. That’s you finding out for yourself what the correct alignment is for maximum support. I think there’s only one way.
What RTB said is true, there are some special Wing Chun ways to manipulate the knuckles, but I’ve heard this dimissed as parlor tricks. I’m sure it’s good stuff, but my point here is that it is not essential to making Wing Chun work for you. To wit: I have learned no such methods.
For a great look at the Wing Chun knuckle manipulation punch, you should check out the movie “Warriors Two” with Sammo Hung. It’s hammed up but you get the gist of it.
But for the basic hand alignment, you should perform the exercises as I described above.
I want to see a pic of how someone would break a board with a wing chun straight punch if they’re standing squarely toward it, so that their arm has to come in to the center line. I want to see what the wrist alignment would look like when viewed from the top.
