I got my first submission tonight + rant and question

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

At the martial arts club we were just doing bjj stuff tonight, no striking. I learned 3 submissions, a heel hook, a key lock, and an arm bar from the mount. Then after that we did some sparring (or whatever the grappling equivalent is).

At first it was just the students against the instructors. We’re trying to submit them, and they’re not trying to submit us, just keep us busy. Then we got to go against each other.

So I started with this other new guy, with me in his guard. We went at it for a little bit. I kind of stood up in his guard and picked him up like a foot and then dropped him back down. I did that twice, just experimenting, not really trying to hurt him. After a minute or two I finally pulled off a decent key lock. I felt pretty awesome, because I’ve only been grappling for like 3 days now.

Later on I sparred with him again, with him starting in my guard. Somehow I ended up in his guard. I slipped out and pushed his leg over and he turned around with his back to me so I jumped on him and did a rear naked choke (I think that’s what it’s called). I choked him and then wrapped my feet around him. I had only seen people do it in UFC and Pride so I just tried to do what they did. He tapped.

Anyway, it wasn’t really fair because I’m a lot stronger than he is, and he’s a few inches shorter than me. He’s probably 5’6" 150 or 160, but it’s not muscle.

I was going to ask him if he wanted to do it again with him starting from a mount, but we were tired and I was more tired than usual because I’m kind of sick.

I need to stop relying on strength.

The second time we fought, I said (in mid grappling when we were tired and out of breath) “Don’t worry, I won’t body slam you this time” and he goes “no, it’s ok.” So, since I was in his guard at that point, I picked him WAY up (like I stood up vertically) and I let out a scream (for drama) and then on the way back down I stopped with him like a foot off the ground and I go “just kidding” and I set him back down with me in his guard.

I felt bad for doing it. I can’t do shit like that because it won’t work when someone is stronger than me, or bigger.

Although one of the instructors is like 5’9" or 5’10" and 260lbs. It’s not muscle, he’s a big guy. I can barely get my feet around him in the guard. He’s awesome at grappling, but I would love to pick him up like that just because I don’t think anyone else has. I’d probably get owned, though.

How do I stop relying on strength? Even one of the younger instructors there was like “use your strength advantage against me.” I was like, “eh?” I’ve never heard a martial arts teacher say that before. Usually they’re all like “more technique, less strength.”

Or is it ok to use strength in grappling?

I’ve never really grappled with someone who is stronger than me. Usually if I’m in someone’s guard I can pretty much hold their arms down on the ground so they can’t move, unless they are all sweaty.

Sorry for the long ass post.

IronFist

2

i would say that using and relying on are two different things brother.

3

How do you stop relying too much on strength?
Simple.
A) Don’t go wild when yer rolling. Focus more on applying technique rather than simply trying to beat the guy.

B) Don’t always grapple midgets. Work with guys who are just as big/strong as you are, or more so. That way you won’t be able to depend solely upon strength to beat them. If no one in your club is stronger than you, then you’re simply a big fish in a small pond. Go look for other places to roll. There are A LOT of huge strong guys that grapple, and are pretty **** good at it.

C) Grapple with skilled partners. If you have very little ground technique, you will NOT outgrapple someone who really knows what they’re doing with submissions and ground work. Your strength will help you delay the inevitable for a bit, but you will get submitted. And this will teach you proper technique quickly because when you get submitted as a beginner, its usually because you did something wrong.

That instructor wanted you to use your strength on him because its more of a challenge and good practice for him.

4

“Don’t always grapple midgets.”

glares

5

What good is strength if you are never allowed to use it?

Some of the best times to press your strength advantage:

When the other guy is weaker or smaller.
When your winning.
When your losing.

etc…

Strength is as much an attribute as everything else. Use it wrong, just like all the other stuff, and someone who has more skill etc will own you into the pavement.

6

If you were told by an instructor to use your strength advantage on /over him he was likely not saying use strength over technique, but saying You think strength is the way try it on me. I’ll educate you that you need something other than strength to win.

If you have to use Strength to win, you’ve lost. Because there are stronger than you or strong as you and against these, you will wear-out. If another person comes along against you, this is other than good.

If you can do well without using your strength then if the situation gets desperate you can fall back on that resource.

Use physical strategies, geometric thought. Angles–leverage–fulcrums, and weight distrbution–balance considering forces atplay and comming into play and likely to play.

Perhaps some-such, some might say.

7

No_Know was probably right about the instructor trying to show you that even when you use your strength, beter position and leverage will negate it.

How do I stop relying on strength?

Learn from smaller guys. Train with bigger guys.

Also grapple when you are completely exausted and “wiped out” then you’ll only be able to rely on technique.

8

Ironfist, I have the same problem. I am a big guy so I tend to use too much muscle work and not enough technique at the moment. I get worn out quickly that way. OF course I know next to nothing about grappling so as I get more knowledge I expect it to get better.

9

Although one of the instructors is like 5’9" or 5’10" and 260lbs. It’s not muscle, he’s a big guy. I can barely get my feet around him in the guard. He’s awesome at grappling, but I would love to pick him up like that just because I don’t think anyone else has. I’d probably get owned, though.

“I wouldn’t try the SLAM when someone in your guard against an experienced GRAPPLER. What they’ll do when u start lifting them is they’ll use their arms to reach one of your legs and then trip u when u’re standing.”

How do I stop relying on strength?

“If u’re sparring small guys…relax…treat them like your KIDs. Or u can start doing stuff like go limp with your arms…and only rely on your legs. You go easy in striking sparring rite??? You can do the same in grappling.”

Or is it ok to use strength in grappling?
“Is it ok to put all your strength into one punch??? Or more practical to learn a COMBO and then eventually add power??? Same principle to striking as grappling. Take your time and learn the techs. then add the explosion later. Lot of big guys love to torture the small guys by using strength…try finding a bigger guy to spar with.”

10

Even us medium sized guys do that. I love the scissors. Something special about making someone puke or cry out.

11

Being stronger than everyone else should make it a little more fun for you. Learn a crapload of submission holds and play with 'em. Since you don’t always have to rely on leverage to gain an advantage, you’ll be able to hand out a host of submission holds that others at their best can only hope to have wet dreams about accomplishing.

This book should help:
submission holds galore.

12

As you get better you will rely less on strength. Rolling with guys a lot better than you and guys stronger than you will also help expediate this process since your strength advantage is nullified, and you will need to use technique. Just give it time.

13

mighty B couldn’t be more incorrect.

As a brand new guy, not not fill your head with a ton of submissions. Learn a few solid techniques and then learn to use them from every position.

ex. you learned the keylock (ue garami, americana, kimura). learn it from the mount, the guard, side mount, north-south, 1/2 guard, standing. - you get it.

I see it all the time, a new guy will be grappling and he’ll think of the latest cool move he saw in this months Grappling mag or he’ll freexe up because he doesn’t know what he should be looking for, he hasn’t done it more than twice and ends up giving up a good position and getting himself sub’ed.

vale tudo zoo zitzus about bazics. you unnasand? bjj competition or pure grappling is about sweet moves because we all know the counters to the basics.

and while Gene Lebell is a very respected grappler, his books are infamous for being plss-poor because they do not teach you how to set up the submission. just the submission itself. (to say that most are impractical for most would be an understatement.)

BJJ: The Master Text. Excellent book for gi and no gi grappling.

Brazillian jiujitsu: by Renzo and Royler Gracie are much better options. very good basics and great layout.

14

I am new at BJJ training. Curious what the “kimura” is… Heard about him but havent been introduced to the technique named after him.

15

Advice from a big guy…

Don’t worry about using too much strength. Strength is actually an asset to you. What you need to do is learn WHEN to use it. Over time, you’ll become more comfy on the ground, and you will naturally be more relaxed. you will know that you don’t have to go as fast and hard as possible to rotate your body for a sub. you’ll learn to only explode when you really need to, like shrimping out of a tight side mount, or executing a hard bridge and roll.

congrats on your first subs. you got them, regardless of whether or not you used strength - they were well earned subs. The real exciting part is when you get them on people better than you, not just other new guys. I triangled a brown belt in judo on monday, and was hyped about it. Then a black belt choked me and put me right back in my place :smiley:

Lastly, don’t feel bad for the smaller guys. If they are good, they will still own you.

16

Originally posted by Losttrak
I am new at BJJ training. Curious what the “kimura” is… Heard about him but havent been introduced to the technique named after him.

Are you familiar with an americana? the kimura is kinda the same, only in the other direction… I don’t feel like explaining it (one of those days) but I’ll find a pic for you. Also if you doa search, I’ve posted a pic of one here before, I think.

17

As Sevenstar said its just the same lock, bent in a different direction.

I always call it a keylock or ude garami regardless of direction. simple.

18

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/kimura/

http://bjj.org/techniques/barra/kbelo/

19

the americana

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/techniques/americana/

20

hey, somebody go check this out: www.fightergirls.com - I just found it, but I’m at work and it would be just my luck if the splash page had scantily clad women grappling, and my boss walked by just as it loaded… Is it a good site? what type of techniques are they showing?