“It is the TC players who mystify everything. For example, guys like you pose other styles a test. As soon as a non TC person can do even the slightest skill comparable to a more internally focused style…you guys try to up the stakes and say “you don’t have a clue”. It’s all ego and Mystical that you guys put together just to try and live up to legends long gone.”
I don’t know if the TC guys who first brought the “mystical” into the Chinese martial arts. It’s at least as old, or young, as the belief of some Boxers that special training would allow their bodies to withstand bullets. I’d agree that tjq has been associated with New Age mysticism and that that’s why many people take it up. And, imo, you’re right if you mean that there are many who think that they can acquire skill through the development of some mystical, unexplainable power, rather than through hard training. Well, they exist in the thq community, and in others, and they may be the majority --because often they are just what people want-- but they are certainly not the only members of the tjq community. There are those, many of whom have never heard of M. Sigman or any other person who has ever posted on the internet, who never talk about anything mystical.
For neijia, I’ve never attacked you personally so I don’t see why you are telling me to re-read your posts. You stated several aspects of your definition of internal and I agreed with your first statement and said Hung Gar does all the ones you listed. Now you say you left some stuff out so it’s still not internal. Fine, I’m willing to discuss this but it doesn’t seem like anyone here wants to. They just want to say Hung Gar doesn’t have it. OK, it’s probably true that the Hung Gar you have all seen doesn’t have it. Doesn’t mean the original style doesn’t have it. (whatever IT is) That’s the jist of my post.
I should really go back to Gary and ask what is his purpose of posing the question? He wrote, “Is anyone else sick of people claiming this? Or does anyone have evidence to the contrary?” Well he’s gotten his answer but to be expilicit, yes, I’m sick of people looking at a very small sampling and claiming they know the system. He wanted evidence to the contrary and he’s gotten a bunch but looks like he’s chosing to ignore it. Now who’s trying to make enemies and not discuss.
My comment about about the Taichi folks no concern of mine is in repsonse to the attitude that Hung Gar is insecure so we have to 'make-up" this internal stuff. I won’t sit back and let some people say it’s not there when it is. Past that, I’m also not going to get into a my art is better then your art or you don’t have the “real ™ internal” arguement when people don’t want to discuss “real ™ specifics.”
So to all the folks who have posted. You want to discuss the internals of Hung Gar, we can do that. You want to just find a way to prove that it doesn’t exist? That’s not a discussion.
I also challenge you to show me one statement where I’ve insulted someone or otherwise tried to make an enemy. Don’t hate me just because I’m right
The crux of the problem is that no one has found an acceptable definition of internal. All we have to do is to define it and then compare each system to the definition. Presto! There’s your answer. But the definition is hard to come by.
All movement requires some flow of qi otherwise you are dead. From that point, everything is now a matter of degree–do we use the mind to lead the qi? Is that internal? When does that phase of training come about? Does that exclude the so-called external styles or hard styles/ I once read in the martial arts dictionary (1980 reference) that GoJu Ryu (hard/soft karate) highest forms were Xing I and bagua. That sure sounds like one system of karate is internal.
I started in the so-called internals and continue heavy in the practice of what we call internal. In my experience, most of problems start with those practicing internal. They seem to take a moral high ground (including the early days of my own practice). A lot of this can be attributable to a misreading of Zheng Manqing. I have had the honor of practicing with some of his 3rd generation students and indeed, they have done pretty good with pushing hands. But if you read Zheng Manqing’s writings, there was a lot training he received that never made it public or passed on to his students. Robert Smith should know better than to write about the softness and then exclude what is necessary for fighting. Of course, at its most highest levels, techniques vanishes into free form. But to get beginners started on this path has been a critical mistake. Most of the taiji players who dabble in it, delude themselves into believing they can fight or use it for self defense. They often criticize the hard styles because they equate hard work, stance training to the external and pooh pooh it because are practicing the soft way, the secret way, Ahhh yesss, takes longer but yield enlightenment. They BS themselves about their training schedules. Even the Yang Cheng Fu players and masters talk about many auxiliary training methods and the need to play and train for hours on end. There is a lot people who talk the talk and trip on the talk, choking themselves.
We don’t know what internal really means and those that we see in public are often a poor example of the system. Zheng Manqing was correct—faith, faith and more faith
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
