Everytime I speak with a hung-gag stylist they insist there art is “a balence of internal and external”, and they have ONE whole form “completely internal in nature!” How is this possible, I have seen dozens on hung-gar schools throughout the world, and not one has shown ANY internal properties!
Is anyone else sick of people claiming this? Or does anyone have evidence to the contrary? If there was internalness it must have been lost?
Kind regards,
Gary
Iron Wire
I am not a Hung Gar stylist but I somewhat follow their development. I think,IMHO, they mean the form Tit Sin Kuen (Iron wire/thread). Hung Gar claims to be hard as Iron and soft as wire/thread. The form has a lot of breathing techniques, sounds, and some slow dynamic tension with lots of mind focus stuff. So in a way it is internal. The only thing is that Hung Gar stylists seems to be either very secretive or mystic about this form. The truth about it is everybody’s guess. I am hopeful that the real stuff is still around somewhere (just added to the romance of the system, can’t be help since this “was” the style I wanted to learn.)
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
Actually, Hung Gar’s internal development starts from day 1. The system progresses to Tid Sin Kuen, i.e. you learn bits and pieces on your way up through the ranks. You have an internal section in Taming the Tiger, Tiger and Crane, Five Animals/ Five Elements. In the five animals/ five elements form, the whole dragon section is used for internal cultivation. This section deals with the dispersement of gung and yau chi, while lining up the du and ren meridians. This is a very crude explanation given that the forms do a lot more than that, but you can get the idea.
Gary- I would love to know which hung gar schools you have visited throughout the world. Although i know they wouldn’t have shown you everything right off the bat, i am surprised to hear that you did not see anything that remotely looked internal. Also, i would be very interested in knowing what you think is “internal”?
Peace:D
Hung Gar is about as internal as Shotokan Karate is, so in other words its not even close. There are reasons why Bagua, Xingyi, I-Quan, Taiji, LiuhebahaChuan are all considered internal arts, notice how Hung Gar doesn’t fit into this list.
The Iron Wire set is a form containing hard dynamic tension and what can easily be considered hyperventilation in the breathing sense. While this does increase muscles to work hard under stressful situations and increase muscular endurance, what it also does is total mess the alkaline levels in the blood and cause one to be semi-light headed and tingily, if you wanna call this “I feel the Chi” go right ahead, but understand this is not what internal movement and power is all about.
Hung Gar is doing now what a lot of other systems are doing, adding the “internal” because it sells, its a marketing ploy, they rely on the “mystery” and “magical,” the “I can’t really explain it” non sense behind what is internal power so students will buy into what not really there in a very complete sense.
That’s one of the most ridiculous posts I’ve ever read. . .and just so this one fits in, I’ll add no more.
If you say that an internal art is strictly Taoist, then Hung Gar is not.
If you say that an internal art uses internal strength along with external and develops qi, then Hung Gar is.
I think Adam Hsu’s essay, The Real Difference between Internal and External Kunguf would fit well here.
"I believe that all these internal/external theories are in fact quite incorrect. The distinction is really very simple to understand. Internal and external do no represent different styles or kinds of kung fu, but rather different levels. We can say that external represents the lower or more elementary level of kungfu and internal the higher and more complex. Therefore in the real kung fu training, REGARDLESS OF STYLE, one must begin with the external and patiently and systematically progress inward to the internal.
Since soem instructors were unable to complete the entire training in their particular styls, many systems today are incomplete and never go beyond the external level. If practitioners are carefully guided by an honest and qualified teacher, who went throught the complete training in a certain style, they will move step-by-step fom the outside, through the door, climb the stairs to the top level, and then reach the internal–the highest level of kung fu.
p. 58
The Sword Polisher’s record: The Way of Kung Fu by Adam Hsu
hung-gar
AMEN kevin!, I like your post also RAF (Royal Air Force?) What RAF said is true about the progression from external to internal, the difference is arts like taijiquan/baguazhang-hsing-I chuan start their internal training where other arts stop, the most advanced internal technique in other arts is a begginer technique in the above! I have seen really old Masters in other style have that “iron wire” and it is an extremely basic level of internal strengh.
Also
Illusionfist I accually took hung-gar for a few months, My second day in class I was told I could not sparr anyone because it was not fair, I had to teach them something! Some of those students had been there 10 years? Also the teacher has training in some shaolin temple, and did wu style taiji as well, he is the best hung guy in the city. When he saw my fa-jing punch he was mystified, as I could punch 5 times harder that he could, and he is a “Master”. I fly in the US Air force, and so I go everywhere, I visit schools, and have NOT ever seen a master with internal abilitys. Many of the so called qi-gong they do is unhealthy, they have postures which block the qi-flow, this is just ignorance.
Hey Denali, I thought this thread might force you to post sometime!!! Nice to see you here!
Gary
Gary:
RAF—nahhh! My real initials from my name although my father was a captain in the air force for awhile.
I really do not know if I have ever seen a Master of Hung Gar. I think Wing Lam’s material looks very good.
I know a lot of Mantis people consider it an external style but many of the masters added 18 lohan exercises to their training. These exercises have a large internal component. The 8 step praying mantis system that I am familiar with also employs the Wu style taiji as part of its system (not mixed with mantis though).
Theres a guy in Massachuestts by the name of Calvin Chin (has a website) who is a hung gar master and also a wu style taiji player. I met him once but he would never remember me (judged taiji together). I bet he could answer this very clearly about hung gar. I saw his students play taiji and it was very, very good along with their hung gar.
Kevin- how much experience in hung gar do you have that enables you to arrive at this answer? Hung Gar has been internal since its inception, so to say its a modern thing is flat out ignorant.
Gary- i’m glad your 2 MONTHS of hung gar under ONE teacher has given you this view. I’ll make sure to tell the rest of the lineages to beware of your dreaded “fajing punch.”
Pleeeeez!!! :rolleyes:
Gary- i would like to know which postures you saw that are detrimental to chi flow?
Hung Gar internalness…
There are two different schools on this…
one is that you train the muscles to build up chi and then guide this inside…the other is that you start building chi from the inside and learn how to express it outward…both are equally valid and dependent on each other…
Fu-Pow
“If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you’d better train every part of your body” - Bruce Lee
>>Kevin- how much experience in hung gar do you have that enables you to arrive at this answer? Hung Gar has been internal since its inception, so to say its a modern thing is flat out ignorant.<<
Well, I’m near brothers with some of Wing Lam’s seniors students..does that count? No, Hung Gar is no where near internal compared to systems like Taijiquan and Baguazhang, it is silly and down right laugh my ass off funny for someone to assume so.
Hung Gar in no one takes the time to develop very refined subtle body movements, the amount of self healing and intantion/energies as what an internal system does. This why many hung gar and other external stylists take up arts like Taijiquan to learn what internal is, you don’t see Taijiquan people taking up hung gar to become more internal.
Did I once say Hung Gar was modern? No, the idea that it is somehow internal and the magical powers of chi used as a marketing ploy is what is modern.
But why should it really matter to you? Hung Gar is an effective system, around today because it was able to get it’s practitioners out of tough spots alive and has been depended upon by mean people and has meet thier needs well. Its your own insecurities that plague you with this “my art is internal too” non sense, no one else’s, thats what I find to be flat out ignorant.
tiet sien kuen teaches many things, some of which I will go into here for clarification: although there is dynamic tension within the form, the emphasis is on a series of releases. The form develops the tendons throughout the body and focuses on winding, and spiriling. The breathing utilizes specific sounds which serve a multifold purpose; to release tension placed upon the internal organs, and to stimulate specific organs and centers. There is an emphasis on faht ging as well in specific sections,using large, small, circular,winding,whipping,sinking,floating, swallowing, and spitting energies, while coordinating the breath/intention. There is attention paid to rooting of the stances, both static and while moving, alignment of the spine,segmentation of the body, all these components and more including concepts and theories such as the sup yee kiu-sao, which opens up an entire can of worms on its own. Now, I’m not sure all Hung-Ga schools teach this, I can’t speak for everyone-I haven’t been to every Hung-Ga school, so I can only speak for myself. But I don’t think an outsider can judge from a month of training, or watching a video a set that is traditionally taught on a very personal Sifu to student level, only after years of training.
Interesting, that sounds a lot like Southern Mantis. Let me offer this for the “Traditional” internalists. The tension is not based on tensing the muscles. Instead, power is generated through a “release with a stretch” (In quotes in case the person who gave me that pearl reads this)
Personal opinion: The tension at the beginning FORCES you to execute the power with relaxation. At higher levels when the energy becomes “live” the tension is abandoned entirely. Sounds internal to me.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
I have no experience in Hungar, so I do not wish to comment on that art. However I do study, practice Chinese internal martial arts.
While I have never heard Hungar be called an internal style before I’m not at all saying it does or doesn’t have any internal aspects to the training curriculum.
I do, however, have a good friend who studies Hung. He considers Hung to be an external art. With that being said, I have seen him practice first hand and he does not have the degree of sung that the internal arts contain. His power comes from the hard not the soft. His teacher doesn’t practice sung in the same manner and sung is not stressed in the same way. This is a big difference between internal & external arts.
There may a form of peng jin in external arts, but not the soft “listening” jin that Taijiquan, Xinyi, Bagua, and other internal arts contain.
External arts may use whole body power. I imagine there are varing degrees of whole body used in various external arts, but again, I don’t see the whole body power being used or stressed in external arts like in the internal arts.
There is no use of the dantian in external art to drive the external movement, this is another huge factor. There is no use of chan si or silk reeling in external arts, another huge factor in the differences between the two. There is no attention paid to the 3 external and 3 internal harmonies in external styles to my knowledge.
The whole body is not used as a fist. This concept may have to be shown to understand, as do many of the internal qualities.
Basicly, what that means is that you can strike with any part of the body at any time without having to reload a particular strike. This ability comes from the degree of sung developed.
Just my two cents…
Neijia
Neijia, yes, there is.
I am continuously amazed at the similarities in the two supposedly “different” styles. External arts ARE fueled by the Dan Tien and use whole body power. Silk Reeling is inherent to Long Fist and although different, the Coiling power in Southern systems is just as full body albeight a bit more wounder. My personal preference is for Coiling vs. Silk Reeling.
The listening is not there, but I say that is more a matter of strategy than anything.
Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned – Taiji Classics
Hmmm
I’ve never encountered a style that didn’t claim to have internal work, or be an internal style for that matter. Whether its Mantis, Wing-Chun, Goju ryu Karate, ad nauseum; everybody says they are internal.
Can they root with real stability? Can they absorb deeply and not just evade superficailly? Do they ever disconnect, from themselves or from their opponents? Do they spend much of their time training/thinking techniques or do they apply principles? Do they actually balance Yin and Yang, not just doing the form slow (I know a local Shotokan practitioner who does this and says what he does is the same as Taijiquan), but balancing power with “Song?”
Most Taijiquan practitioners are Doufu, but Xingyi practitioners are oak, so its hard enough to find internal practitioners in the internals. I’ve never trained Hung-Gar as a style, but I have trained Iron Wire, and it approximated internal but it was still mechanical-internal (this didn’t reflect the teachers ability to be internal as he had wicked Chen style).
illusionfist, you may be right and it may be an internal style, however I’ll remain sceptical until I can actually see evidence of someone who has gone internal with Hung-Gar alone. Its rare enough for someone to get internally connected while training a recognized internal style (fortunatly less rare today than 30 years ago) so to see it happen out of a style like Hung-Gar would seem almost miraculous to me.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
Internal concepts in Hung Gar
This is a big subject. I’ll start with, Adam Hsu’s quote is correct. Int/Ext don’t represent styles but levels of understanding. I used to think that HG and TC were two paths up the same mountain. I now believe that it’s still the same mountain but TC starts higher up the mountain.
Fu-Pow was right. 2 different philosophies. Use the one that works. Hung Gar has the theory that you learn the gross movements first and after 10,000 times your body will find the optimal path. Biggest problem with this, who has the dedication to go the distance? Also, the gross movements are very effective early on so gives the impression that you’ve “made it.”
Tai Chi is opposite. Start with perfect form and eventually you add the speed and power. Biggest problem, how many people can tell they are doing the “perfect” form? Like Kevin said, it’s hard to find internal people in the internals. Why is that? They do it “relaxed” but have nothing to test against.
Kevin wrote, “Can they root with real stability? [a bunch of questions deleted for brevety]”
Listen to the teachings of Chiu Wai in Calgary or the Lam family in Hong Kong. You’ll here everything above emphasized not just taught. I could go line by line if you like. Touch hands with Lum Jo and you feel cotton until he makes the bridge and then it’s steel. He is 91 years old and still performs Hung Gar. He understands the internal side of Hung Gar. Pure Hung Gar. No Tai Chi. All the concepts are there. Hung Gar is a conceptual art. Just learning techniques is very basic level.
At the Lam Chun Fai seminar, LCF showed some applications that are internally based. Sensitivity, rooting, absorbing, etc. He is pure Hung Gar and put them in a Hung Gar context but you’d be hard pressed to say Tai Chi does it differently.
Everything TenTigers wrote is taught about TitSin (and more). For the friend of nejiachuan who shows NO sung in his Hung Gar, I can not comment. This is not how the elders in Hung Gar teach it. Again, line by line you are not saying anything that is not covered in Hung Gar. No listening? You don’t understand the 12 bridges at all.
Also, don’t let demo’s fool you. Chiu Chi Ling has to be the worse (IMHO) for showing internal connection in a demo. He likes to do a very flashy style. But I saw him in private and his private teaching is far from his public demo.
OK, so why am I posting? Just to get some of the misconceptions out of the way. I still go back to the fact that tai chi is much more advanced then hung gar in teaching internal concepts. The way they relate the concepts are different too. IMHO, tai chi is too advanced for the average student. Once you get the basics (externals) down, you are ready to absorb the internal. It’s like trying to learn calculus without knowing algebra or even basic math.
If you choose to ignore that Hung Gar has internal concepts, then that’s your choice. I’m actually posting for the Hung Gar folks to look at their forms and be concious of it. Read the Lam Sai Wing Tit Sin book. It’s all there.
The only thing Internal about Hung Gar is if you practice inside(lol)
I think,all CMA in their training and applications have Internal and External components but to a different degree,some accentuate the hard over the soft and others the soft over the hard, they all have yin and yang.
The percentage of this soft and hard mix can make a big difference in the principles and the flavor of each style.
Although we all train the same components,strengh,flexibility,balance,aligments, coordination,as the external,
and breathing,concentration,relaxation and chi circulation as internal,each art has it’s own expression and principles that make them different.
Some people think that in Internal MA to get power you only need to have the right internal body mechanics,sure you need that,but if you don’t include Tan Ti movement,breathing,relaxation and intention to have good chi power circulation ,is no internal power.
Internal power comes from the Tan Tien movement and very refine body mechanics, not from muscle and as far as I know only Tai Chi,Pa Kua and Xing Yi uses that.
[This message was edited by virus fist on 04-18-01 at 11:20 PM.]