Humour me please!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
1

OK so I know that I ask these questions from time to time, and I’ve always actually been prevented from going to the gym and picking up any weights…

but I’ve got another opportunity now my anma has finally put my latest bulging disc back in place…

so I’ve got another opportunity to ask you guys dumb questions! :smiley:

  1. What are your big four?

If you could only do four weights exercises what would they be?

  1. What weights exercises do you recommend to strengthen a lower back that keeps popping out? (Or if you think weights are a bad idea, why?)

I should have access to a gym fully eqipped with free weights and someone who can show me good form.

2

Number one for me is squats. Back squats are great and so are front squats. Both exercises not only work your legs but they also work all of your stabilizer muscles from your shoulders down.

Number Two is deadlifts. Great for your lower back. Also any time I pick up something heavy like a bag of dog food or one of my kids I’m using the deadlift motion. This is a great exercise for every day life.

Number Three is any kind of over head press.

Number four would be a combination of body weight exercises like dips, push ups and pullups.

My only advice is to really evaluate why you want to lift weights. Are you trying to get stronger, bigger or have more functional fitness? Also, don’t get sucked into the standard body building isolation exercises because you’re not sure what you want to do.

Maybe post what your goals are so people can give you some ideas as to what you can do.

3

My big four?

Squats

Deadlifts

Bench Press

Pullups

However, that’s not a complete routine, and most people will not get full development from just those. However, those are the four most important lifts that should be the core of your workout, in my opinion.

Of course, you should still do things like calf work, ab work, and you may need some additional arm work (I do, because my arms don’t like to respond to bench and pullups).

4

Big Four lifts? Er, well this is what I emphasize right now, but it is important to work weaknesses. For example, at a later time I might be emphasizing deadlifts over the pulls.

Clean pull OR power curl(I throw the discus so I am a bit partial to the power curls, but clean pulls and snatch pulls work fine)

Back squat OR front squat(full ROM)

Bench AND Row(Both should be done for balanced development of the shoulders, so I treat them as one exercise)

Dumbell clean and press with one hand - done from the hang(knee height or so)good torso strengthener.

But… gosh, theres so much else you can do, and as Dan John says, “All training is complementary” so there is much synergy between different exercises, and each develops a specific quality. Outside of weight work, my big four would probably be sled dragging, sprints, jumps and throws of various kinds.

  1. What weights exercises do you recommend to strengthen a lower back that keeps popping out? (Or if you think weights are a bad idea, why?)

Give these a try, Dr. McGill really knows his stuff, and these exercises has helped a lot of people.

http://www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca/~mcgill/fitnessleadersguide.pdf

Also I would practice statically tensing up the core. I know Zatsiorsky recommends these for developing the “abdominal corset”, but I don’t remember the exact parameters because I don’t have the book with me. Do these a few times a day, a few sets at a time. Stand upright, inhale and maximally tense everything in the midsection.

5

Functional strength. Especially in the lower back to try and prevent yet more bulging discs.

I was thinking four basic exercises because I want to start simply and I’ll only have maybe half an hour a week maybe twice a week to start with, with the weights in the gym
.

I’ve just started doing push-ups, sit-ups and bodyweight squats again. I think the bootstrappers put my back out last time so I’m giving them a miss for now.

Cheers.

6

Mat,

Big four- kinda a ‘which art is best question’, IMO. ATG squats rock, but for me, right now I need to rehab my hips to save my knees before going heavy ATG, for instance.

If you’re concerned about your low back here are some things to think about-
1). You need strength and strength endurance in your abdominals and lower back both symmetrically and asymetrically.

2). You need to work on avoiding spinal flexion, keeping a strong L-spine curve (arch), and using your abs to stabilize your back. Check if you’re getting your hips under you in the WC stances by using some rectus or hip flexor, or if you’re using more glut- glut is right, shortening using the other stuff seems to do some bad things structurally (from a mechanical perspective) and may flex your L-spine, making you lose your arch, and predipose you to low back injury. Gluts extend the hip and move the pelvis forward, from what I can tell this is what Yip Man, Emin B, Steve Cottrell (on his kb videos) and Chuck Vogehpul (on the EFS exercise index demoing squats) are all doing.

3). For low back work for you I’d actually recommend k-bell (or DB) swings as you shouldn’t be taking any compressive load on your low back during their execution (and compression + flexion + rotation in the L-spine seems to = disc injury), but they will work your spinal erectors, hams, and gluts giving you both strength and muscular endurance.

4). For overall stabilization- farmer’s walks, figure 8 walks w/ a weight pressed overhead, suitcase deadlifts, windmills, bent press (done very carefully)

5). Westside guys swear by the rever hyper for rehabbing back injuries- L spine work without compression or rotation (actually with a little traction).

6). If you want a big exercise for strength- go with belt squats or trap bar deads until your back is right. The trap bar was invented by a powerlifter trying to train through a low back injury.

7). Stretch your hip flexors.

So-
Workout #1)
Trap bar DL
Upperbody press/pull horizontal plane, paired
Pick 1 from #4
Farmer’s walk or kb/db swings

Workout #2).
Unilateral leg work w/ dumbells (keep the load off the l-spine)- split squat, lunge, stepup, bulgarian squat
Upperbody press/pull vertical plane
Pick 1 from #4
Farmer’s walk or kb/db swings

Andrew

7

Mat,

Big four- kinda a ‘which art is best question’, IMO. ATG squats rock, but for me, right now I need to rehab my hips to save my knees before going heavy ATG, for instance.

If you’re concerned about your low back here are some things to think about-
1). You need strength and strength endurance in your abdominals and lower back both symmetrically and asymetrically.

2). You need to work on avoiding spinal flexion, keeping a strong L-spine curve (arch), and using your abs to stabilize your back. Check if you’re getting your hips under you in the WC stances by using some rectus or hip flexor, or if you’re using more glut- glut is right, shortening using the other stuff seems to do some bad things structurally (from a mechanical perspective) and may flex your L-spine, making you lose your arch, and predipose you to low back injury. Gluts extend the hip and move the pelvis forward, from what I can tell this is what Yip Man, Emin B, Steve Cottrell (on his kb videos) and Chuck Vogehpul (on the EFS exercise index demoing squats) are all doing.

3). For low back work for you I’d actually recommend k-bell (or DB) swings as you shouldn’t be taking any compressive load on your low back during their execution (and compression + flexion + rotation in the L-spine seems to = disc injury), but they will work your spinal erectors, hams, and gluts giving you both strength and muscular endurance.

4). For overall stabilization- farmer’s walks, figure 8 walks w/ a weight pressed overhead, suitcase deadlifts, windmills, bent press (done very carefully)

5). Westside guys swear by the rever hyper for rehabbing back injuries- L spine work without compression or rotation (actually with a little traction).

6). If you want a big exercise for strength- go with belt squats or trap bar deads until your back is right. The trap bar was invented by a powerlifter trying to train through a low back injury.

7). Stretch your hip flexors.

So-
Workout #1)
Trap bar DL
Upperbody press/pull horizontal plane, paired
Pick 1 from #4
Farmer’s walk or kb/db swings

Workout #2).
Unilateral leg work w/ dumbells (keep the load off the l-spine)- split squat, lunge, stepup, bulgarian squat
Upperbody press/pull vertical plane
Pick 1 from #4
Farmer’s walk or kb/db swings

Andrew

8

Great. Thanks a lot Andrew, that’s diamond. That gives me plenty to work with. Starting after payday (next week) so I’ll let you know.

I kind of figured it was a ‘best art’ kind of question hence the title, but still, everyone has an opinion and thank you for taking the time with the provisional workout.

9

wow, hope you take Andrew S’ advice. I’ve come back from a bulging disc in the mid back, and I say ditch the “I’ve just started doing push-ups, sit-ups and bodyweight squats again” … A little stance work is good, jumping jacks, deck squats might be good, you know, gymnastic bridge, highly dynamic or static stuff, one or the other, not isolation strength moves done for reps.

I don’t stick to just a big 4. If I had to limit it to four single movements, it would be squat, deadlift, bench, and clean and jerk. That’s limiting though. It’s really more like a big 1, sometimes 2, rarely 3, because I’m only ever concentrating on one lift at a time in terms of really moving it, and take what I get with everything else.

I actually think windmills are amazing. I’m usually too lazy to do them but now that I got the 70 lb kbell my interest is back up. Time to go do some.

10

Even Steven

The idea of a “Kung Fu Core” is what you need to work on. most guys go for the ripped glamour boy abs and neglect the back. Treat your abs like any muscle increase weight and make them big and block like. Then tend to the back with the same intentions. build your “tree” (lower back area) into a powerhouse with steady smooth heavy movements. then when done do smooth fast moves with no weight.

you will become harder at your core than anywhere, and rightly so because all punching kicking walking jumping everything starts there. I actually ab pull downs with 150 pounds and my core feels terrific. then of course i spend alot of time with hanging knee lifts and finish with an equal back routine.

Another thing few people understand is the role of the Buttocks in the scheme of core power. Train that booty till it twitches and you will help your back.

11

I intend to.

and I say ditch the “I’ve just started doing push-ups, sit-ups and bodyweight squats again” …
Are you suggesting that it’s not a good idea to do these on an off day? I’ll only have max two sessions in the gym a week, but on the days when I train fu at home I’ve always done this kind of exercise. Does that not have benefits?

Cheers Darkfist… not entirely sure what you’re talking about, I’ll come back to it when I have time to digest it.

12

Right, I’ve been wandering about this enormous place called the Net, with it’s infinite contradicting information and I think I’ve come back to a just a couple of steps further on from where I started!

Would it be possible you could give me a quick functional definition of spinal flexion, especially in relation to the lower spine?

Check if you’re getting your hips under you in the WC stances by using some rectus or hip flexor, or if you’re using more glut- glut is right, shortening using the other stuff seems to do some bad things structurally (from a mechanical perspective) and may flex your L-spine, making you lose your arch, and predipose you to low back injury. Gluts extend the hip and move the pelvis forward…
From what I’ve read about what these muscles are I’m doing OK. My line seems to open stance through the rectus and hip flexors and sink in by pushing out seemingly using the gluts. If I lose position esp when stepping/kicking, I can see how this relies more on the rectus and (esp) flexors and loses the arch. This has lead to my back going again at some points

5). Westside guys swear by the rever hyper for rehabbing back injuries- L spine work without compression or rotation (actually with a little traction).
This looks like it might be precisely the kind of thing that would pop my back out again…

7). Stretch your hip flexors.
Any specific movements that would do this?

The specifics of your workout:
Trap bar DL: If there’s no trap bar is there something that will achieve a similar result? I’m assuming straight bar DLs will not be nice!

Upperbody press: Can’t actually find what this is! There are any number of presses on the sites I’ve looked at… which one would this be?

Farmer’s walk: looks esp good, and simple!

kb/db swings: the sites say to keep your back striaght but most pictures have it bent… and how would I keep the arch? Oh, and one hand or two?

If you know a good comprehensive site you can recommend that would make your and my life much easier!

Thanks in advance!

13

I guess. My big thing is that pushups hurt my shoulders and back, situps don’t do much for the core and bother my sacrum. I’ve done high rep hindus and they bothered my knees. I would just pick different bodyweight exercises like the ones I mentioned. Especially gymnastic bridge which targets your problem.

PS “Upper body press” means any upper body press, like bench, MP, one armed, etc.

14

Hey Mat,

spinal flexion- bending forward at the lumbar spine, rounding your lower back, making it into a ‘C’, basically. This puts massive strain on the anterior portions of the discs.

From what I’ve read about what these muscles are I’m doing OK. My line seems to open stance through the rectus and hip flexors and sink in by pushing out seemingly using the gluts. If I lose position esp when stepping/kicking, I can see how this relies more on the rectus and (esp) flexors and loses the arch. This has lead to my back going again at some points

There’s going to be some play there, especially in motion. It’s worth taking a look at your practice to see if an old bad habit is a culprit.

If I remember correctly Louie Simmons devised the reverse hyper to rehab himself from a back injury many years ago. I haven’t used one, but the obvious advantage is that the back is being worked but is not under a compressive load (and, in fact there’s some traction being placed on the spine in the bottom position, decompressing it).

Hip flexor stretches- most unilateral leg work (lunges, bulgarian squats, etc) has the lovely advantage of forcing you to stretch the flexors of the rear hip. You can do a variety of pieces of mobility work, static stretches, etc, too, but nice long sets of walking lunges seem to do a pretty good job. One drill I used to do was lunges to 10 positions, straight forward, 45 degree forward, to the side, 45 degrees back, straight back, 10 reps each positon each leg. if you’re feeling froggy you can add in crossover lunges in front and back, too.

Trap bar DL- if no trap bar then do DB deadlifts or deadlift two barbellls- basically get the load off your low back.

Upperbody press- any upper body press you care to work.

kb/db swings- I’d start light so single handed should be fine once you’ve learned the motion. Hit the EFS site, they have exercises up there, dragon door has a bunch, and there are some nice resources up in the sticky ‘links’ thread at the top of this page.

Feel better,

Andrew

P.S. You’re in Japan right? Drop me a line if you’re coming stateside by way of LA.

15

Thanks all.

Think I’ll jump on the blog bandwagon with this thread so you chip in when you have a suggestion.

May be a bit sporadic posting of course.

16

What I want to know is … how do you keep f-ing up your lower back? Seriously, how does it happen? Just so we know and don’t do it to ourselves.

One guy I met who did a desk job for 60+ hours a week had to get periodic shots into his spine to relieve the pain. The doctor prescribed him situps, and crunches, but for some strange reason he never did them.

17

Here goes.

Wed’s a long work day (get up 6, leave house 7, get back 2135)… so basic one-hr workout (at home so no weights).

  • Basic lunges 20 each leg.

  • Walking lunges 20.

  • Hindu squats 20.

  • Siu lum tao.

  • Chum kiu.

  • Biu jee.

(these three at reasonable pace - not really really slow)

  • Push-ups (I know, I know, but I’ve no imagination for other bodyweight upper body stuff right now!): 10 standard, 10 wide, 5 narrow.

  • 10 bridges.

  • 5 manji steps (basically a low horse stance with arms outstretched, chest pushed out, back curved, stepping slowly with count of ten, dragging rear foot to low squat position not rising and slowly wheeling the arms so one is reaching up straight and the other pushing down straight, then into the next horse stance) - usually do 10 but hadn’t the energy after the increased leg work.

  • 3 shiko (sumo leg stamping warm-up).

  • 8-silk reeling brocade with full extension and relaxation.

Legs already feeling it. It’s been too long.

With this kind of workout usually do shadow boxing/bagwork too, but it’s too late to make the noise with the bag and I don’t want to overtax my back with the chance of jerking it out with the shadow boxing.

18

Yeah, you’re not doing any ab exercises + I don’t know what kind of job do you have, is it either sitting around a desk all day or carting around some heavy things?

Why not any ab exercises?

19

I’m a teacher, but I do have a lot of time for light exercise during the day, as long as I don’t get too sweaty! :slight_smile:

I usually do sit ups and various other things, but I’m fighting shy to avoid putting my lower back out again. I think part of the problem may be I have strong abs and a weak lower back.

20

That’s weird. Usually you find people with weak lower backs and they have weak abs.

I don’t know what to say, then. Maybe check with a physical therapist type person. (A good one, not the usual idiots running around these days).