Sorry, figured you’d read between the lines. Since you need it spelled out explicity: Yes, I’ve used a PVC dummy and it sucked!
To be fair, crappy wooden dummies abound, but I’d pick a wooden dummy over a PVC one 100% of the time.
Remember, it’s called “mook yan jong,” not “PVC yan jong.” If I were you, Ironfist, I’d edit my advertising accordingly.
Hello Iorn Fist,
I have used a PVC dummy and many versions of the wooden Dummy. My first teacher had both. My current teacher only has wooden ones that I am aware of.
I think you need to ask yourself what is the purpose of the wooden dummy. The dummy does have a purpose, and if your dummy, PVC or Wood, meets that purpose, then I suppose it is fine. I myself think the dummy goes much further than the typical beating they seem to recieve by many persons. If that is your idea, then the plastic dummy might be OK.
I think the dummy is there to provide structure and allow you to release some power into it. A good solid device seems much better than plastic, atleast the ones I have used. Quality is very important in many devices. Many cheaper products serve a purpose, but there is always the genuine high quality ones. I think the dummy fits that role. I have yet to see any “master” of wing chun advocate, use, or even be photoed with a PVC dummy. Resources are limited in HK and I would think they would jump on the PVC ones if they were OK. Also, not that dummies also tend to be made out of a small selection of wood. This too suggests there is even a difference in Wooden dummies.
In the end, I suppose it only matters that the dummy does what you need it to do. If the PVC one works, that is fine.
Tom
I think that they would have used plastic in the old days if it had been invented then. I also think that J.S. Bach would have composed music on a synthetiser if they would have been around.
Who is going to create the cybernetic robot chi sau partner?..
Well, for those of you who insist on bashing me, my dummy conforms 100% to traditional design in terms of dimensions, movement, etc. The only difference is the body is plastic. In fact, mine is quite superior to many of the wooden ones that a lot of companies sell. My top arms are within 1/8" of the same height, for example. This is obviously better than a wooden body one whose top arms are different heights. It’s also better than the wooden ones that have flat or angled (ie. not round) bodies. Wooden arms are key, the body just holds them in place and as long as it is hard, round, and the right diameter it really doesn’t matter what it’s made out of, in my opinion.
I never said mine was better than the good wooden ones. However, for someone who doesn’t have $800 to spend on an all wooden one, it provides a decent alternative. The structure you will develop on mine is no different from the structure developed on an all wooden one (unless the all wood one is one of those crappy ones).
I made the FAQ so people wouldn’t buy the useless ones. I realize that anyone serious about WC wouldn’t buy a bad one in the first place, but there are tons of lurkers here who never post anything who might be considering purchasing one.
Anyway, if you don’t like PVC ones then don’t use them. My PVC body dummy has wooden arms and legs and is identical in proportion to a correct WC dummy, but as I’m a college student who can’t afford to buy one, I built it to suit my means.
Every person from this board who has purchased my book has been more than impressed, and most people here are waaaaay more skilled and knowledgeable about WC than me, so I take that as something.
IronFist
i dont know what others have been taught on the dummy, but i think PVC wouldnt work purley for the fact that its hollow.
How can you put your force INSIDE the dummy if there is nothing there?
The structure you develop on a PVC jong will certainly be different than the structure developed on a proper wooden jong made to the specifications of your lineage. Yes, believe it or not, there’s more than one acceptable “traditional” design.
The one thing which I believe is common to these “traditional” designs is that they are all made of wood. Go to Hong Kong or China today. You still won’t find many jong made of PVC. They still make them out of wood
If you’re going to call this thread “How to tell if a wooden dummy is crap” let’s also consider what other people consider to be the makings of a crappy jong. I am not alone in thnking that PVC is a poor choice for a dummy. I would go so far as to say that no dummy (practicing the dummy in air, also known as “hong jong”) is better than the “PVC yan jong.”
Are genuinely interested in getting a FAQ together for what makes for a good jong or are you simply interested in promoting your PVC jong plans? Are you interested in conversation about this topic or do you just want to promote your own agenda?
The structure you develop on a PVC jong will certainly be different than the structure developed on a proper wooden jong made to the specifications of your lineage. Yes, believe it or not, there’s more than one acceptable “traditional” design.
Can you tell me how? Other than “it will be different,” you’ve yet to back up anything you’ve said with substantial proof. There are different “traditional” designs, you are correct. By “design,” I’m referring to spacial dimensions, and not material. The biggest flaw is the top two arms not being the same height.
The one thing which I believe is common to these “traditional” designs is that they are all made of wood.
Geez. If leather punching bags are good, does that mean vinyl ones are useless?
They still make them out of wood
Once again, PVC is a cheaper subsitute in cost for those of us who can’t afford a real one.
If you’re going to call this thread “How to tell if a wooden dummy is crap” let’s also consider what other people consider to be the makings of a crappy jong. I am not alone in thnking that PVC is a poor choice for a dummy. I would go so far as to say that no dummy (practicing the dummy in air, also known as “hong jong”) is better than the “PVC yan jong.”
Just because every PVC dummy you’ve used and seen is poor, does not mean mine is.
Are genuinely interested in getting a FAQ together for what makes for a good jong or are you simply interested in promoting your PVC jong plans? Are you interested in conversation about this topic or do you just want to promote your own agenda?
Geez. You make me sound like a communist.
It’s ONE TINY SENTENCE in my faq that mentions a PVC BODY as a substitute for the “real thing.” It’s not like I use PVC arms or anything. It’s also not like I said wooden bodies suck. In fact, wooden bodies, if made properly, are superior to PVC ones.
I can’t remember if I wrote the FAQ or my book first, either. 
So, until you back up something you say with more than just opinions, I will consider you a troll with 8 posts who has nothing useful to contribute.
IronFist
Hi Iron Fist,
First off, do realize people do have sound reasons for wooden dummies. The dummy is not some trivial device but does have some thought put into its design. Some do prefer the PVC ones, others dont. Like anything in life, there is a trade off. When I speak of a wooden dummy and a PVC, I am not talking workmanship quality per say. I am sure your dummies are fine. They may even be the best PVC ones around. There benifit is cost, portability, flexibility, ease of construction, etc. Nothing to take lightly…especially for us poorer folks and college students.
BUT, I have not seen Lok Yiu, TST, and others rushing out to buy these dummies. I doubt any one would trade a Koo San dummy for 5 of the best PVC ones. There is a difference. The wood has a weight aspect that cannot be accurately dupplicated. A wooden dummy can be difficult to move as a real person do to the weight. The PVC’s just do not have this feel to them. The dummy can help to develop certain energies or jing, I think that is the correct term. When you hit the dummy, you can add a little bit to it. This helps to develop the elbow energy and tests the root. The force of the dummy moving is crucial. Also, you made a good point. Not all wooden dummies are good either. I bought a crappy one. THat is why I am so ANAL about it.
I beleive one should weight until they can get a dummy. Most schools do not teach the dummy right away. This can give you a couple years to save the money. I recommend buying a top quality one since the lower quality ones suck and you can be disapointed.
Also, I don’t bleive the mismatched height of the arms is a bad thing. I think it depends on who builds your dummy. There is more important considerations such as the angle of the arms and the closeness. Wing Chun can be used at any height and this should distract as much. Too wide of arms can cause you not to focus correctly on the center.
just my thoughts. Don’t take them too personal. I like the feel of real wood.
Tom
Quality wins over quantity, consider that when you refer to my number of posts!
As far as why structure would be different, I’ve already mentioned two things: weight and the fact that the PVC body is hollow. FWIW, S.Teebas also chimed in on why hollow PVC wouldn’t work, so I’m not alone in this opinion.
If I hit the dummy and it’s not weighted correctly and it doesn’t feel like it should when I hit a solid dummy, the feedback will eventually make me conform to the PVC dummy. Why would I want that, to struggle so hard to build up good structure and then work out on a crappy dummy and have it foul me up One step forward, 3 steps back, IMHO.
SO, what makes my statements opinions and yours fact? From where I sit, you’re as much as a nameless, faceless troll as I am.
Originally posted by IronFist
[i]Geez. You make me sound like a communist.
IronFist, make sure you don’t confuse critique of the dummy with critique of you. I didn’t see anything personal in what was written. Just in case. 
Regards,
Have any of you used a steel dummy? Hollow steel with hollow steel arms and legs on a sturdy stand. Any opinions?
I think the PVC dummy will still serve its purpose. It may not be as good persay as a traditional wooden dummy but if it is made well and it has a sturdy foundation so it can take a blow the it will still help you develop skill. If I had to choose then of course a good wooden dummy is what I would choose but if my wallet looks at me and dies laughing then a good PVC one will do.
How to Tell if a Dummy is Crap?
Originally posted by Cipher
Have any of you used a steel dummy? Hollow steel with hollow steel arms and legs on a sturdy stand. Any opinions?
I think steel would be too difficult to work with. Even PVC seems more alive than steel.
[B]
I think the PVC dummy will still serve its purpose. It may not be as good persay as a traditional wooden dummy but if it is made well and it has a sturdy foundation so it can take a blow the it will still help you develop skill. If I had to choose then of course a good wooden dummy is what I would choose but if my wallet looks at me and dies laughing then a good PVC one will do. [/B]
Personally, I prefer wood over PVC, but I have used a good PVC dummy. The dummy was cleverly mounted on a light-weight wooden platform on which the user stood, and the user’s weight gave the dummy weight. This dummy was measured and exactly duplicated in dimension the authentic wooden dummy in my school, and it had wooden, tapered arms, of correctly uneven height, with the dummy’s right arm being higher than the left, just like old Yip liked 'em.
A sure sign that a dummy was designed incorrectly is to find that the arms are the same height. Sorry to rain on anyone’s parade.
Regards,
A Correct Jong Photo
Click here and scroll down left side to Ben Der
Click on the picture to enlarge it.
Here is an example of a correctly designed wooden dummy albeit shown from slightly below.
Regards,
Ok. The arms are not supposed to be exactly the same height. In keeping the arms correct, that would be very difficult.
The shanks of the upper arms are offset, however, so the arms can be at almost the same height. These dummies you see where the upper arms are more than 1" different in height are wrong.
And if you want to play the let’s site old photos game, I have pics of both WSL and Yip Man using dummies that fit the above description of arms.
Geez, we all need to chill out over this. The entire reason I wrote the FAQ in the first place was because of crap like this. Can we all at least agree that that dummy sucks?
Why am I so insistant that the upper arms should be almost the same height? Symmetry, of course. While nothing is guaranteed in a real fight, I feel that it is best to train each side evenly. That means training a left bong sao at close to the same height as a right bong sao, for example.
I’m done having this argument. If a dummy makes you a better fighter, then it has accomplished it’s purpose. The FAQ details what I consider to be the most effecient design, however.
IronFist
Hi Ironfist,
Originally posted by IronFist
Geez, we all need to chill out over this. The entire reason I wrote the FAQ in the first place was because of crap like this. Can we all at least agree that that dummy sucks?
Yes. I included the link to a picture of what I consider the ideal dummy only for reference purposes. I support you in your contention that a good dummy can be constructed from PVC.
[B]
Why am I so insistant that the upper arms should be almost the same height? Symmetry, of course. While nothing is guaranteed in a real fight, I feel that it is best to train each side evenly. That means training a left bong sao at close to the same height as a right bong sao, for example.
[/B]
I don’t know authoritatively why the left arm is lower, but I assume it is to force the average right hander to work his/her left side more.
[B]
I’m done having this argument. If a dummy makes you a better fighter, then it has accomplished it’s purpose. The FAQ details what I consider to be the most effecient design, however.
[/B]
I didn’t mean to come off as critical of you or your posts. You have done a good job and performed a service in citing the issues. It’s just that one notion of the arms that I disagree with you on. Just because it’s my lineage’s preference doesn’t mean it isn’t correct for you, especially after all the research you’ve apparently done. I wouldn’t claim to have enough insight yet to change what I know, is all. 
Thanks.
Cheers
IronFist
One of my dummies was made by Koo Sang and from the photo pic Grendel, Ben Der’s dummy also looks like a Koo Sang dummy-
the knobby one piece legs are very similar. But on my Koo Sang one the left is slightly higher than the right. On my custom built dummy- the ends of the arms are more close to level with each other.FWIW. I prefer wood over PVC by far and as for metal-no thank you and as for square potruding arms as in ebay pic- good lord. A fool will probably buy it too.
Wooden Dummy…
Wow- I’ve been missing an exciting thread.
Regarding the dummy arms, I always thought the builder tried to make the arms level, but because the arms went through the trunk and crossed in the middle, this was impossible.
PVC vs. Wood? Definitely wood, but I’m currently building a PVC one because (1) I enjoy the challenge of building it myself (2) I don’t have an industrial kiln to get all the moisture out of a traditional log (3) cost factors and (4) PVC IS easy to work with. Capping the PVC dummy is always an option for those concerned about weight.
Regarding “traditional” wooden dummies… Traditional as in teak or some other exotic Asian wood? If I have a red oak dummy, is that somehow less traditional than teak?
Bottom line- If a PVC body works for you, use it. I’d rather have a PVC dummy like IronFist’s than no dummy at all.
I also have IronFist’s book. It’s good manual for the Do-It-Yourselfers out there. I applaud his entrepreneurship.
BTW- Yuan Fen, have you seen the NEW dummy by Yip’s student? It has THREE top arms, TWO middle arms and TWO legs. Its in the November issue of IKF (can’t imagine why they didn’t put it on the cover). Any thoughts?
Mokujin asks:
Yup- saw the picture. Comments?I pass!
Three arms!! HAAHAH