How to defeat a SKILLED knife fighter who's out for your a**?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who’s out for your total destruction?

I was watching some knife fighting videos on youtube then the thought came to me “What the hell would I do in that situation?”, " Thrust a guard out and have it cut to ribbons!..no I’d shorten my guard and my blocks (I know theres no blocks in wing chun- maybe my defensive hand techniques :confused:) then I’d perform some sort of limb destruction to immobilize the weapon then I turn and take out my opponent.

By the way the attacker is SKILLED! like an EVIL GURO DAN INOSANTO!!! :frowning: theres no one stab to guts but a million and one slashes).

1.What would you do?

2.Can you shorten your guard? And what happens to the immoveable elbow theory?

3.Does anyone practice limb destruction in there wing chun (nerves, muscles, joints)?

4.What about your footwork? Is it alive enough for this kind off situation?

5.What drills do you think would help? It can could from any art once you mod it to use wing chun concepts.

2

Ah dude, if a guy has a knife and knows how to use it, you’re a carved turkey, period.
Unless you have a knife/weapon and are BETTER than your attacker.
Unarmed VS a knife?
Versus a guy that KNOWS how to use it and WANTS to kill you?
Ah dude…

3

Well I understand what you’re saying sanjuro but what if you have no choice, you have nowhere to run, your wife and kids are here, what do you do? Raise your hands and say “kill me quick!”? You have to try something…at least if you want you and your family to live.

Now go back and write something a little more helpful…I’ve read your posts you’re brilliant when you want to be(still not knocking what you said before…its true!).

4

[QUOTE=MrQuickstep;924453]Well I understand what you’re saying sanjuro but what if you have no choice, you have nowhere to run, your wife and kids are here, what do you do? Raise your hands and say “kill me quick!”? You have to try something…at least if you want you and your family to live.

Now go back and write something a little more helpful…I’ve read your posts you’re brilliant when you want to be(still not knocking what you said before…its true!).[/QUOTE]

Hey, no one said anything about folding into the fetal position !
:smiley:
But lets be truthful here, the first thing you need to accept is that, IF you are unarmed VS someone that knows how to use a knife and wants to kill you, you are ****ed.
Now, having accepted that, what do we do?
Take the ****er with us.
Now that we have established the correct mentality, what do we do?

My suggestions is to get a hold of the Die Less Often series by the Dog Brothers, it will open your eyes to many things.

After that…look, I have gone up against a knife when I was unarmed, and the times it has happened I was lucky that the people where either to drunk to know what they were doing or that I got the jump on them and took them out and found out AFTER that it was a knife that he was reaching for.

Understand this, a trained knife fighter will kill you before you even know what is going on, the best you can hope for is to “SEE” what is gonna happen before it gets to that.

5

depends on your skills set and what is involved…

give him your money

keep your distance until he gets bored or tired

maintain control over the knife arm and persons body structure

go ape on him and be prepared to die in the process

there is no answer, be prepared to get cut and lets be thankful that the number of skilled knife fighters is still low and those with the skills don’t generally go around attacking people!!!

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

6

Good advice I have been given is train with the assumption that the attacker has a blade.

Your empty hand skills should still help you…

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

7

[QUOTE=MrQuickstep;924422]How do you defeat a SKILLED fighter who’s out for your total destruction?
…

1.What would you do?

[/QUOTE]

pray I don’t bleed out before help arrives…

8

Funny we went over this same scenario while training with my sifu two weeks ago. A friend of mine who’s a 4th dan in Shotokan karate and brown belt in BJJ had learned all these knife defenses for yrs and believed he could disarm a attacker with a knife. Well, I know from my early days with sifu that he is very skilled with a knife… You do see where this is going right?:smiley:

Just so happens one of our training brothers carries around his Chinese daggers and other knives along with a rubber training knife. Well it didn’t take long to find out that…If you’re unarmed against a skilled knife wielding attacker " You’re Dead!!! :eek:

My friend tried everything he was ever taught about knife defense, and learned it would result in you getting carved up like a turkey the day after Thanksgiving.:stuck_out_tongue:

Like sifu says the best you can do is try and keep distance between the person and yourself. If you do have to in gauge them, you have to let them move first and look for a chance to attack and go for the kill!!!

You have to have the intent to kill, and hope and pray for the best.

jeff:)

9

Look at it this way, its hard enough to beat someone WITHOUT a knife, much less with one, even much less with a knife and KNOWING how to use it.

10

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;924492]Look at it this way, its hard enough to beat someone WITHOUT a knife, much less with one, even much less with a knife and KNOWING how to use it.[/QUOTE]

Yup. And that goes for multiple opponents, etc.

11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

Scary stuff. Guys can’t even get their guns drawn to fire back.

12

[QUOTE=couch;924498]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz08AUmXSxE

Scary stuff. Guys can’t even get their guns drawn to fire back.[/QUOTE]

A must have my friend, a must have.

13

Unless you have a weapon and skilled with it, I’d say run and make space - throw obstacles in the way, and get away.

Even trained with a firearm, in less than 20 feet, you are at serious disadvantage.

14

run and show him your ass… He will surely die of humiliation.:smiley:

15

I can’t get youtube at work but I remember in one of my L.E. academies watching a set of video’s that basically left me with the impression “your screwed” the Officer couldn’t draw as fast as the knife guy could close distance. So instead of tactical fire drills I guess wind sprints is a better use of time.

16

against an unskilled opponent, it’s hard enough, especially as the opponent will often move unpredictably and attack you “wrong”, LOL, but if you have been well-trained to deal with your own adrenaline response, you stand at least a chance if you use everything available to you (environmental layout, improvised weapons, etc.) in a tactically organized manner; and we have all seen video evidence of people stabbed multiple times by enraged, yet tactically disorganized assailants who have survived; so again, randomness seems to be the watchword - as a trained fighter, your goal is to limit that randomness and try to take as much control of the situation overall as possible

now, take that tactical mindset and give it to your knife wielding opponent as well: well, you’re basically fu(ked, because unlike the amateur knife wielding psycho, he’ll go for target selection, and will set you up to get it (e.g. - distracting you with his empty hand with the knife as the hidden, follow-up attack); I guess that the answer is to carry your own blade (or similar ranged weapon such as a telescopic baton) and wear body armor at all times (or at least leather wrist bands, gloves and jacket - good leather can be effective turning a blade to varying degrees, at least more than a t-shirt); of course, this is if you live the kind of life where this sort of scenario is a concern to you - if it’s not, the one advantage is that the chances of you randomly coming up against a trained knife fighter are probably pretty slim to none…

17

Hello,

Anyone who trains with a knife in a realistic situation will have been cut and expect to be cut. No matter how skilled one is with empty hands or even with a blade, when facing someone else with a blade it is most likely both will be cut.

If one is to survive an edged weapon encounter then one must accept that they will be cut. You must mentally prepare yourself for the fact your will be injured and be ready to fight on no matter what. For most the shock of being cut is what stops them, they are unprepared for seeing their own blood and fighting through the pain. Unfortunately, there are few options for preparing to fight after one has really been cut so it is impossible to predict how one will respond in a real situation. All one can do is train as best they can, but IMHO spend as much or more time on mental preparation and visualizing being cut and still fighting on no matter what.

The video seen in many LE training classes is titled “Surviving Edged Weapons”. It featured Dan Inosonto (sp?) as well as Tuhon Leo Gaje. What the video showed is that if a knife weilding attacker is within 21 feet it is highly unlikely that an officer will be able to draw and fire 2-3 times before he is cut. In some instances both the attacker and the officer will both be injured for real, but the point being that the knife weilder will most likely reach and strike the officer. The 21 feet is seen as the minimal safe distance for facing an attacker armed with an edged weapon which will allow the drawing and firing of a holstered weapon.

On another note, slashes, while deadly, rarely result in death. The more dangerous is the stab, even if it does not appear to be bleeding much, as in many cases the bleeding is internal. Also, a small blade is all that is needed to penetrate to most vital targets, 3" is more than sufficient to kill.

One technique which is particularily dangerous is commonly referred to P’Kal and involves catching the limb with the blade down. If this is successful then the opponent will further injure themselves if they attempt to pull away. Of course the one with the knife can also pull the blade towards themselves as well.

A skilled knife fighter will be able to manuever the blade with a speed and flow akin to Chi Sau. If blocked they will redirect to another target.

All in all better to avoid if at all possible. If not, expect to get cut and have to fight on. FWIW one technique taught to me in the military involved taking a cut\slash on the outside of the forearm in order to get close enough to deliver a killing blow. Not saying this is such a good idea, but it does stress the reality of being cut in a real fight.

Oh, not to be picky, but the chances of coming up against a skilled knife fighter are pretty good, imho. Anyone who has been to prison or grown up on the streets will most likely be pretty proficient with using a blade.

As I like to tell my students, when I used to teach, “I cheat”. Rest assured that those you encounter on the street will also “cheat”. It is highly probable that you will not even see the first strike but jus feel the results. If you are not ready for that mentally then you will most likely not survive. Also, even if you survive you may be maimed in some way. :frowning:

18

nice post sihin.

19

Good advice I have been given is train with the assumption that the attacker has a blade.

Your empty hand skills should still help you…

Only up to a, er, point.

Many of the bread and butter WC defenses against empty hand attacks will get your forearms sliced to ribbons if the attacker has a knife. The knife guy would love you to try to bridge and stick to his knife arm.

Sihing73’s post was on the money.

www.florofighting.com has some pretty good material regarding blades and their use and defense.

20

a friend of mine had to deal with this situation once

he could have got away, but pride got the better of him.

it happened during a ‘break’ in fighting. this is one of the reasons why i think sparring is not the be-all-and-end-all. real fights break and come back together again - as such, IMHO practising entry drills can be almost as important as sparring.

anyway…

as there was no way on earth my friend was going to walk away, he took his tshirt off and wrapped it around his hand/forearm and used this to jab his way in and eventually got to the outside of the attacker and choked him RIGHT out. he had studied a bit of boxing and was a very good street fighter. he hailed from Afghanistan and to him knife encounters and fighting were an everyday thing that didnt phase him as much as it would us.

in essence what im trying to say is that you need to use your environment, you need to be carefull and not let pride get in the way. you need to get used to defending a blade against random encounters - not set 1,2,3 drills in the classroom.

i personally wouldn’t have a clue iwhat to do until it actually happened - sometimes to spend time practising against someone skilled could be detrimental, as someone said earlier - on the street they will almost always be untrained and completely random