how much can one learn from practice a set

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=hunt1;984845]Why don’t we have baseball forms or basketball forms or boxing forms or wrestling forms if forms are so useful? Because they aren’t necessary and they wouldn’t be helpful.

Actually you are only correct if the only definition of a form is a long series of multiple moves. If you look at san sik as forms, as many do then you are very wrong.
. Baseball - just working your swing,working on your stride=san sik. Everything in wrestling can be practiced solo and good wrestlers do it. Shoot to single= san sik for example.

The key is how you train not what you train. Take a punch and add movement no different than a boxer working his jab and footwork solo as a general example.[/QUOTE]

we isolate actions for perfection when coaching dont we ? the sets are these actions strung together..like I said YOU dont understand it so YOUR wasting your time doing it dont bother…
If you dont understand something why talk like you do ? oh yeah your a lawyer :smiley:

22

[QUOTE=k gledhill;984978]we isolate actions for perfection when coaching dont we ? the sets are these actions strung together..like I said YOU dont understand it so YOUR wasting your time doing it dont bother…
If you dont understand something why talk like you do ? oh yeah your a lawyer :D[/QUOTE]

One thing I never understood about ANY TMA forms - they really aren’t like isolation drills. To be most accurate they seem most similar to dance choreography.

The fact that they contain fundamental movements of a MA seem to be the only reason for their existence. You don’t see them fought that way.

23

imo different forms from different people have different purposes. I also think forms should constitute a very small % of your Wing Chun training, but I do not beleive they are useless, simply way over emphasized. Their the easiest way to train, but they are also one of the least effective. Seems to me in most schools the best students at sparring worry the least about forms, and vice versa.

24

for a good TCMA style, form is the soul of the art.

It includes the training of the physical, mind, Qi medirians activation which is describing the art’s body and fundamental of its application. Similar to processing different type of iron for different characteristics and usage, with different ingradients, steps, and timing.

The trouble of todays’ view on form is a single physical dimension view according to one’s OPINION where the full picture and characteristics of the art is missing and so does changing the form without knowing the big picture distoted and distroy the form totally.

For example, SLT/SNT, the proper way of practice is NEVER NEVER EVER USE any force exessive to be able to lift the body loose and expand.
See, how we do it today? forward pressure… tensing…etc. lock in the centerline…etc

Sure all of these forwrd pressure, lock into centerline is derived from some one’s experience in some figthings incidents or applications… but that kill the art. it is a wrong thing for cultivating SLT/SNT but the arguement always is “oh, that fight better.”

Well, what to say?

with a dead eagle and make it a mummy which looks mean, put it in the living room is not the same with a bird which can really fly.

But honest and seriously, if you dont practice your SLT/SNT nearly effortless, and stuck in your YJKYM in those triangle structure…etc. look like a piramid that is dead stuffs.

get rid of those forward pressure, those are poison to trap you and give the grapper the lead to take you down…

real WCK is like a boomerang, it cuts if one grasp. it cuts retrogradely similar to a sickle if you hug it.

and again, if you make that forward pressure your habit, you missing that boomerang sickle power.

without that sickle power there is no WCK. any one can get close to your body and you are dead.

Remember, WCK is famous for its close body? yes, that retrograde Sickle in 1850, but is it gone.

It is not Hung gar, it is not CLF, it is not SMT… it is WCK because it retrograde and sickling like a boomerang, if it missed it retrograde back and cut again from different or opposite angle. it is chain effect but not like those chain punch like machine gun bullets. It is swift, continous boomeranging.

That is WCK. that is what the form of WCK cultivate. and now, how many see this?

I expected all kind of arguements.

OK, you win I wont argue. but seriously obsevere and examine it to see what I said making any sense or not? and can your form give you that retrograding, sickling, boomerang power?

I dont like verbal communication because it is extemely limited and mind speculation limite
if you know chinese, this is my message on this topic in multi dimension. read the lyrics, feel the music, view the motion…etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr4vj7mk&feature=related

25

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;984979]One thing I never understood about ANY TMA forms - they really aren’t like isolation drills. To be most accurate they seem most similar to dance choreography.

The fact that they contain fundamental movements of a MA seem to be the only reason for their existence. You don’t see them fought that way.[/QUOTE]

I repeat if YOU dont understand it then how can you make sense of it?

each action serves to develop a a specific action/position/idea, that can be done one on one with no forms and direct use ie , jut can be performed on an arm rather than in a solo form in the air.
It can also be done on the dummy …I can also show how to fight with it first then how the student can do ‘homework’ isolating it in a form or on its own.
WSL was well known for using a blackboard in his school to write students personal mistakes to better themselves …philipp , bad wu sao positions…keving bad bong etc…everyone was on the board. Isolation in fighting drills, forms…then fighting itself…if the mistakes appear in free-fighting we have a way to isolate a bad elbow position, without the other guy trying to take your head off as you attempt to rectify the mistake…

the levels of isolation are limitless…

Ive seen commercials for ways to improve your baseball swing , they show kids practicing single actions over and over before adding it to the chain of events that make up a simple swing of a bat…sure its easy to throw a ball and say hit it…but then an experienced coach takes a look at your swing and he can isolate drills to improve certain things …break it down into parts…

Terence doesnt have enough specific knowledge of the system to criticize it, so he generalizes a lot…typical lawyer arguments .Talks tennis though :smiley:
but you dont know VT.

26

[QUOTE=k gledhill;985020]I repeat if YOU dont understand it then how can you make sense of it?

each action serves to develop a a specific action/position/idea, that can be done one on one with no forms and direct use ie , jut can be performed on an arm rather than in a solo form in the air.
It can also be done on the dummy …I can also show how to fight with it first then how the student can do ‘homework’ isolating it in a form or on its own.
WSL was well known for using a blackboard in his school to write students personal mistakes to better themselves …philipp , bad wu sao positions…keving bad bong etc…everyone was on the board. Isolation in fighting drills, forms…then fighting itself…if the mistakes appear in free-fighting we have a way to isolate a bad elbow position, without the other guy trying to take your head off as you attempt to rectify the mistake…

the levels of isolation are limitless…

Ive seen commercials for ways to improve your baseball swing , they show kids practicing single actions over and over before adding it to the chain of events that make up a simple swing of a bat…sure its easy to throw a ball and say hit it…but then an experienced coach takes a look at your swing and he can isolate drills to improve certain things …break it down into parts…

Terence doesnt have enough specific knowledge of the system to criticize it, so he generalizes a lot…typical lawyer arguments .Talks tennis though :smiley:
but you dont know VT.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your post Kev. It’s about understanding what the form is there for. If you just go out and say to a student, this is how it is done apply it now and then have someone throw a punch at them, the circumstances of this will not allow it to be taught correctly. If someone jabs at me, and I use the fok concept (over the bridge arm, making it go below mine without pushing down), and it’s not working due to position or muscluar tension, whatever, I can perfect that subtly in the form. We perfect it there, so that in application it is somewhat correct. But the form is just the beginning, the planting of the idea or Siu Nim Tau, next we have to drill it to bring it alive, and then learn to apply it, all progressions build upon the other one and can be used to refine any mistakes made at each level.

James

27

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;983822]Forms or linked sets are simply a remnant of a really poor teaching method. Practicing a set means you are wasting time.[/QUOTE]

You amaze me at how clueless you are. Even the best musicians practice scales. Ever hear of Mavis Beacon? Pro ball players practice set drills. BJJ Black Belts practice drills. I could go one but you’ll still try to convert people with words instead of example. From now on unless you say something really ridiculous I won’t reply. Oops, I guess I’ll be replying often.

28

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;985031]You amaze me at how clueless you are. Even the best musicians practice scales. Ever hear of Mavis Beacon? Pro ball players practice set drills. BJJ Black Belts practice drills. I could go one but you’ll still try to convert people with words instead of example. From now on unless you say something really ridiculous I won’t reply. Oops, I guess I’ll be replying often.[/QUOTE]

Forms are not “scales”. When you practice scales you are actually hitting notes and playing the instrument – a closer analogy to forms would be practicing scales in the air without an instrument. Want to point me to the musician that does that? :wink:

Yes, I know athletes do drills, but they do drills that reflect what they really do in playing the game.

And as I said before Phil, why don’t we leave leading by example to the people who have proved themselves to be very, very good instead of people like us?

29

[QUOTE=sihing;985028]I agree with your post Kev. It’s about understanding what the form is there for.[/QUOTE]

OK, let’s say you or I or Kevin have some “idea” what the form is “for” – how do we know whether our “idea” is valid or not? How do I know, for example, that I am not just projecting my idea/theory onto the form?

Why is it that you can have one idea of what the form is for, Kevin a different idea, and me yet another?

When you practice a movement in the air – how can anyone say what that movement is really for?

Perhaps, all it is meant to do is teach you the movement itself and nothing more. And that through our practice (application), we give it meaning.

30

not the point …every coach/student will have a method of getting up the mountain…your choice as to what path you take, and decide if the view your coach has is the highest one available…what he sees may not be the view another has reached…so…

walk on

31

[QUOTE=k gledhill;985068]not the point …every coach/student will have a method of getting up the mountain…your choice as to what path you take, and decide if the view your coach has is the highest one available…what he sees may not be the view another has reached…so…

walk on[/QUOTE]

You didn’t get the point. It has nothing to do with mountains.

32

T-you know more about Gung-Fu than you do about music it seems.
Actually, as a musician, practicing scales, whether or not you produce a sound, is highly productive. It trains position, and develops dexterity, coordination, speed, and strength of the fingers. Practicing legato, or staccato, each develop different qualties of energy.

33

so first its cause people don’t know why they do it. When that fails its because its not done in the right way so you are saying when tiger woods is just doing the exercises when he wanted to improve his swing. Which when i say it he was standing there swingigog the club this is the same as when he plays. So when a grappler practices his positioning and they just roll this would be a set or drill to practice a move when not under great stress. Ie how every one learns. You start just by doing the note in the air. Slowly then work up to doing it at real pace, with real competition. Most will still keep some drills or just use them to fix problems…

34

ok, without this being another pick on Terrance thread, you need to address one thing BEFORE having an intelligent conversation about this, and that is;
why are there forms? What is a form? What is it for?
(If you are going under the false as$umption that a form is an imaginary fight against one or multiple opponents-which is what you tell children, then you fail.)
If you cannot answer these questions, then you have no business in this conversation. Really. It’s like listening to Tom Cruise speaking his mind on world issues.

35

[QUOTE=TenTigers;985077]T-you know more about Gung-Fu than you do about music it seems.
Actually, as a musician, practicing scales, whether or not you produce a sound, is highly productive. It trains position, and develops dexterity, coordination, speed, and strength of the fingers. Practicing legato, or staccato, each develop different qualties of energy.[/QUOTE]

OK, but are you practicing that movement in the air, or on your insturment.

My point is that all our actions in WCK are to be performed with/against an opponent (our instrument, as it were). So, if you want to practice position, dexterity, coordination, speed, strength, etc. it only makes sense to practice those things on your instrument, not in the air.

36

most of the concepts isnt in the form its in the fist poem taught alongside every technique
any martial art family that was rich has a detailed fist manual

if your styles family doesnt publicly release the fist manual something is wrong

forms can only teach u so much, especially a obscure esoteric form that looks nothing like actual fighting with no explanation of the movements

37

Good response Terence, but can one not just replace “air” with a resistance mechanism rather than a live training partner, e.g. wooden dummy, heavy bag, resistance bands?

My thoughts on the WCK forms are that they formally record the WCK actions and the applicable ranges: hieght, width, depth. Developing the “gung” and other attributes come via other exercises/drills.

Just my opinion.

38

I’m just curious, what are 5 famous chinese martial art styles that have zero forms in the curriculum?

39

[QUOTE=k gledhill;985020]I repeat if YOU dont understand it then how can you make sense of it?
[/QUOTE]

This is such a typical TMA mindset. “Go do your forms until you understand them”.
Many sifus teach this way. It promotes the cluelessness we see today regarding martial arts and the huge gap we see today between arts that train for sports-like competition and those that don’t.

I still practice WC forms. I use them to doublecheck different structural alignments during technique. They also have a meditative value. They also have internals value.

But again, the question remains, and it is not becuase “I” don’t understand it.

Why aren’t forms anything remotely like fighting?

40

[QUOTE=TenTigers;985077]T-you know more about Gung-Fu than you do about music it seems.
Actually, as a musician, practicing scales, whether or not you produce a sound, is highly productive. It trains position, and develops dexterity, coordination, speed, and strength of the fingers. Practicing legato, or staccato, each develop different qualties of energy.[/QUOTE]

Because in music you practice how you play. You do scales, phrasing, arpeggio sequences like you solo.

“If you see it practiced, you see it played” IS true in music.

But, “If you see it taught, you see it fought” IS NOT true in martial arts.