help teaching womens selfD

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21

Watchman
“While Jon has good advice, it doesn’t cover the issue well.”

  • Sniffle:( Well i tried my hardest and did the best with my limited knowledge.
    Agree with you on most rapes occuring though the family or though friends and dates but the ORIGINAL question was actualy simply what to teach women from a self defense standpoint.
    My post was not a detailed ‘rape defence mentality’ essay.
    Anyway good post.

David
Doing well buddie, few bruises and my legs hurt like hell but other than that im super fly :smiley:
How are you doing over in Merry ol England? How is the qigung going?

22

Now Jon, I DID say that you had good advice, and I meant it. :slight_smile:

I just wanted to point out that there are deeper issues involved than just teaching some environmental awareness stuff with some punches and kicks. All of that is relevant, of course, but it only touches the surface of the issue and in my experience can be a disservice to the women involved if that’s all that is being taught.

23

Originally posted by Watchman
[B][

Teach a woman the same way you would teach a man.

I respectfully disagree. Since women are physically, psychologically, and emotionally built different than men, trying to instruct them the same way as men is ultimately fruitless.
Beyond that, woman need to be taught about “Rape Culture” and how they are socialized to be seen as objects, and how not to allow themselves to be maneuvered into that mentality.
[/B]

Teaching a woman like a man would mean teaching them the same techniques. If all people think a woman should do in a rape situation is attack the eyes or groin, then most females should just quit their martial arts training right now. Why waste the time and hard training if all it boils down to kicking in the nads and gouging the eyes? If an attacker bear hugs a female, why should her reaction be any different to that of a male being bear hugged? Sure, if she isn’t big enough to throw the attacker over her back, then kick him in the nads. And why would males do it any different?

The mistake we make is to try and tell the opposite sex what to do. Regardless of it being a man telling a woman how to react in a rape situation, or whether it’s a woman telling a man how to react when his wife is physically and emotionally abusive to him, either way it won’t always work. It is better to try and explain where we come from in our perspectives, so we can understand ourselves and each other more. A man can’t tell a woman what’s the best way to react, a woman can’t tell a man the same either. We understand ourselves better than other people and act accordingly. Of course giving tips is great, but taking it to the point of ‘I am this sex, I understand how we behave, I know best, take my advice’ really isn’t always the best advice.

We normally give advice on how WE would react. Because we will never understand the opposite sex, sometimes surprise reactions will truely stun us. For instance, if I attack a female and i think ‘Oh yeah, chicks always go for the nads and eyes’, then obviously I would protect those areas more. But if a female trains in martial arts and fights ‘like a man’, and instead of kicking me in the nads, she tries some other trick and i try to attack her more, but she continously counter those attacks, and lays into me like any other guy would, then that would get me to think twice about it.

Eyow, i don’t think i’m making much sense anymore. :confused:

24

Stumblefist,
You’re making a ding-a-ling out of yourself. You can’t argue with facts, Watchman teaches courses in Women’s self-defense, and has much experience and study in it.
The old “rape gene” argument doesn’t hold water in the psychological aspects of the crime. Even rapists themselves talk about what Watchman and I mentioned.

I will give you this. In “animals” (and we are animals) there is a gene to drive the desire to procreate. I will even go as far as saying the “rape gene” stuff does hold water in a purely biological aspect.

But NO rapist goes around saying “I need to procreate I need to procreate.” That’s almost laughable.
You’re simply ignoring the psychological mindset of these people.

You’ve given no evidence in support of your theory, while Watchman has given direct evidence.
Jumping up and down and crying “Ryu and Watchman are wrong!” and “Their all politically correct tree huggers”
is not an argument.

Ryu

25

Stumblefist:

Study the rapists, not the raped to understand their motivations. Understnd the criminal mind, not the psychologists of the modern movements. There are many combinations of emotions going through the minds of criminals.

As part of my Victim Advocate training I have attended two seperate seminars hosted by my local county attorney’s office on the psychology of sex offenders. The seminars were instructed by an individual with a Ph.D. in criminal psychology, and who was a court appointed therapist that counseled the sex offenders at the state prison.

I have also tagged along with counselors to sit in on interview sessions with sex offenders incarcerated at the local county jail. I also put in volunteer time at the local women’s shelter.

Outside of that, I have done a great deal of personal study on the subject in order to become a better instructor to the students in my courses. Therefore, I believe I have somewhat of an insight on the matter.

There are many combinations of emotions going through the minds of criminals.

I agree. The emotions usually oscillate between the perceived need to fulfill their drives, and the fear of getting caught. It’s quite a conflict.

I’ll repeat myself: rape and sex assault are about power and control.

Watchman, those arguments have many holes.

Well, you can tell that to the pros I work with who deal with these issues on a daily basis. I get my information from them.

BTW, the “insight” into the criminal rapist’s mind that I received from those seminars I mentioned above was enough to make me remove myself twice from the room and literally become physically ill. Understanding how these animals think and the motivations that go into their crimes is a little glimpse into hell.

26

I think Watchman has nailed it pretty much dead-on. One of the best things you can teach is the intent. One can learn every possible physical way to defend themselves, but without the intent to use it the learning is useless. Mindset training, adrenal stress handling…it’s all good.

One thing I will disagree with is this predominance I see and hear a lot about the “hit the nads” attack. Men guard this area better than their bank accounts. Test it…walk up to a buddy and just fake a groin shot. Watch how quickly they react and defend that area. It’s a viable option, certainly, but not always the best.

27

the only effective street defense for women is BJJ.

1`.You grab onto the assailant and put your feet on his hips as you pull him into your guard. Then you wait for him to punch in order to lock him up.

2.Then roll him over into the mount, wear him down and then submit him.

special note: When initiating step one, make sure you are wearing panties if you are in a skirt, otherwise these methds are foolproof.

28

“80-90% of most sex assaults are committed by someone the victim already knows and has a relationship with. Therefore, teaching them a bunch of stuff in a limited time-frame setting that deals with “stranger rape” scenarios will cover only 10% of assault situations.”

While looking in the shadows forgot about the perps right in front of us. I even know a girl who got gang banged by “friends” at a party after she passed out drunk. She didn’t remember what exactly happened and never reported it. That goes down as rape in my book.

29

Thanks for all the responses folks. I’m really interested in what everyone thinks about the subject. I deffinately think differences of opion should be dicussed but I do hope it doesn’t turn into to much of an arguement.

Stacey said:
the only effective street defense for women is BJJ.

1`.You grab onto the assailant and put your feet on his hips as you pull him into your guard. Then you wait for him to punch in order to lock him up.

2.Then roll him over into the mount, wear him down and then submit him.

I don’t study BJJ. I don’t have any problem with it as a style but i think it could have the same draw backs that any style can if it’s not being tought specifically for womens self defense. I think it could be particularly effective in a date rape situation and one on one attacks. As far as it being the only effective street defense I have my doubts. I wouldn’t teach your advise in the case of multiple attackers. I don’t think its an ideal aproach in a street encounter especially. An encounter doesn’t necasarilly start on the ground and you might not want it to go to the ground.
Mark

30

Originally posted by Stacey
[B]the only effective street defense for women is BJJ.

1`.You grab onto the assailant and put your feet on his hips as you pull him into your guard. Then you wait for him to punch in order to lock him up.

2.Then roll him over into the mount, wear him down and then submit him.

special note: When initiating step one, make sure you are wearing panties if you are in a skirt, otherwise these methds are foolproof. [/B]

I’ll go tell all my friends to quit their kung fu, karate, kickboxing, etc training right now then. gee i wonder how i’m gonna put my foot on an attacker’s hip if he bear hugs me from behind? :rolleyes: ooh yeah, i’ll wait for him to punch me too, don’t be so daft lady! there is no such thing as ‘special’ defences for women or men, we are all humans and we fight like humans. it is not gender exclusive. my female friends do not fight any differently to me, if all they were concerned about was eye gouging, ball breaking, or trying to overpower me, then they’d be BIG A$$ trouble.

i’ll be sure to warn them to wear panties too :rolleyes:

31

For the love of God everyone…keep this thread on track.

32

Man, you guys have completely discounted Stumblefist. Tsk, tsk. As a woman, I have a hard time NOT equating rape with sex. OF COURSE it’s a power tip. But it’s a SEXUAL power trip. Otherwise there would be men hiding in alleys waiting to smack me upside the head then run away. Babies, old ladies, camels, sex is not only about how pretty someone is. There are SO many layers. you cannot divide sex from the human psyche. It drives a great deal of our emotions and actions. HOW MUCH it drives and controls is the point.

What about male rape? Is the attacker just a bully?

I am not a teacher, but I have had younger kung fu sisters. When I become responsible for showing them applications, I take it very seriously.

It starts in the mind. The highest percent of women who have been raped were coerced. Understand that, you men. Self-defence involving punching and kicking is not effective when she is double-talked into the back seat. She is already there, has allowed herself to be put in this position, and has very little remaining courage. A woman must be focused on the fact that this is HER body, no one else’s. That can’t be taught in a one-day seminar. And it takes a very sensitive teacher to realise which student may have low self-worth.

The body. Against the type of physical assault the woman will encounter in the street, put yourself in her attacker’s shoes. How would you try to restrain her? Or how would you try to disable her? Her first instinct (of course I’m generalizing) will probably be passive… “if I don’t fight, I will live”. Guys seem to know that a fight is a fight, you don’t hold back. My master says “hold the hand, you get hurt.” Women tend to value skin, whatever evil sick mean nasty brain it encases. Teach her the attacker doesn’t feel the same. Remember that in kung fu, we train to have heart, mind, spirit and intent in every move. The attacker WILL have that. With this mindset, show her the best solution against your attacks, whatever they are. Make your face ugly. Scare the crap out of her. MAKE her react. Give her a taste of what to expect. Appeal to her intellect and not her brawn.

If you can teach over the course of months, ongoing self-defence, you already know what to teach and how to teach it. But if you are just trying to help someone, or perhaps you are a student like myself with responsibilities to newer students, try to instill confidence, and make sure whatever you teach is understood and can be executed. Instill confidence, gravity of the situation and drill, drill, drill.

33

Going back to a point discussed earlier: the truth is infact that most women never stick to going to more than one class, or a few. They just aren’t interested. You can’t make them learn. They have to want to. And that is rare.

My advice, to add on top of what everyone else has said? Well, i don’t let my two best (girl) friends walk after dark alone, or with another girl, or fu.ck it, i don’t let them walk anywhere at night, i make them get taxi’s, or take them myself. Same with my sister or mother. Thankfully, they all totally agree and understand my concerns, as i scared the **** out of them, of how easy it is for a male to get the better of them. I’m glad they’re not one of those dumb bit.ches that thinks they are invincible and decide to walk home alone from the other side of town and “it’s perfectly safe” cos they " do it all the time ". When i say to some girls you shouldn’t walk home alone at night they try to throw a equality trip “oh so just cos i’m a girl, i shouldn’t walk home alone, you sexist *******?”

Yes, You dumb bit.ch.

Kung lek, what have you been smoking? Train women like men train? That is bollocks. Sorry, your replies display wisdom 99.9% of the time, but that is nonsense. Men do not have to worry (as much) about rape as women do. It’s a totally different set of rules. For a start, if a man WERE to get raped, it would be a different set of groundwork defences that you’d have to train for!! Men are much stronger than women, in general. I mean a LOT stronger. You can’t train them the same way. It doesn’t make sense.

34

Stacey–you’re a fool. Not a single BJJer advocates pulling guard in any attack situation.

Stumblefist you really are spectacularly, WILLFULLY obtuse.

Here’s some food for thought–if you know 5 women, chances are you know somebody who’s been coerced into a sexual act involving the genitals.

Anyway, the only BJJ they should be learning is how to control movement, reverse position, and get up. It takes too long to teach proper joint breaks and chokes. It also adds the advantage, as one poster pointed out, of not necessarily going for those eyes and nuts on a person that you thought was a nice guy. You can ADD those techniques in though.

I can think of a bazillion things to do from the guard, but if I had to teach a class in women’s self defense, the only thing I would teach is scissor sweep, knee on belly, foot stomp/soccer kick to the face, leave immediately screaming at the top of your lungs the whole time.

Mount escape would be shrimping. Most women do not have the strength to bridge and roll a man, and learning the “sensitivity,” necessary to learn WHEN you can do this is going to take too long. Shrimping requires less sensitivity and is also effective for the back seat scenario.

I would teach how to up kick and stand up in base.

I’m going to say this ONE LAST TIME about the ground. You CANNOT effectively throat strike or eye gouge without controlling the opponent first. Get used to it.

35

Rape is about power.

Is hunting about food/ economics? No..its about the sport of it.

Neither is rape for sex. Its about loveless animal sex. I don’t mean sex with animals…but a lot of animals rape each other.

On that note, be sure to renew your rape licenses. Remember, if she’s under the legal limit you can get fined for poaching. In its an altar boy, you can also get fined because they are nearly extinct. Prison inmates and the insane are legal and encouraged by the fish and game department. If you and a sorority girl are drunk and have sex. You still “raped” her…so make sure to have your rape license handy.

The whole pulling into the guard was a sattire, you a fuggin moron if you couldn’t figure that out. Oh the above statements weren’t meant to be taken seriously, just a social commentary on hunting and they way women are similarly objectified.

36

I’m lucky to have a lot of girls in the class who are comitted and I know will stick arround. Unfortunately there is always the problem of self worth and self esteem and just teaching women that they have the right to hurt or kill someone else to defend their life. They’re all really cool amazing girls and I’ll tell you one thing none of them would stand for trivializing, sexist language like calling them or other women dumb b.itches. That kind of talk says a lot about how you view women and their empowerment and how unmindful you are sharky.

37

No Stacy, satire is the onion, America’s finest newspaper.

What you wrote was about as funny as what most MMA’ers write about kung fu. It’s tiresome to hear the same crap repeated, OVER AND OVER AND…don’t you think?

I don’t pull guard when somebody is trying to knock my block off—and you don’t do “Flower Hands and Embroidery Legs,” either.

Feh… here I am being all serious when I should be playing!

38

I don’t know about the other guys posting on this thread, but a big guy like me doesn’t give a **** about a groin shot. Infact, I have a video of my self tasering my groin, beating it with fists, and hitting it with a pipe. You will probaly say I have built a tolerance, well, how come my friends never drop from those shots? They are not like me at all. I would recomend woman learn to attack the throat and eyes with little restraint and severe force. Those infact, and the easiest places to learn how to hit that will cause severe damage or death. NO MAN ON THIS EARTH WILL SURVIVE A FORCEFUL THROAT SHOT.

39

“I have a video of my self tasering my groin, beating it with fists, and hitting it with a pipe.”

Well, we’ll just leave that be…

FistOfTheNorthSide,
You may have to trigger a violent response in some women by calling them a dumb b itch or even using the dreaded “C” word to show them that they can hit to hurt. Others just yelling and shoving them a bit also works. Just make sure to be wearing a very good fight suit when you do. Now these techniques are a last resort to bring out that side of a person, usually when they’re being badly abused by their significant other. Sometimes though you’ll get someone who will just take the abuse, for them it’s the life they know.

40

I don’t have acceses to a fight suit. I don’t know that the yelling and name calling approach will be needed. I’m friends with the girls and I think we’ll really have to work up to that kind of stuff. Right now were going to work on the most basic skills first. we’ll see if its needed.