Hardest part of mimicing your style

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1208368]The sooner students start free style sparring the sooner they learn to adapt their system as natural AND get rid of horrible tendencies they already have and those that “point” and “controlled” sparring WILL create.
Students start sparring as soon as they can in many other systems like boxing, MT, Kyokushin, KB, Judo, BJJ and so forth and the one thing all those styles have in common is they produce good fighters AND they fight (look) like they train.[/QUOTE]

I don’t agree to starting to early, it usually just helps natural abilities improve, not to learn the do the so called art.

The idea of an art is to reprogram the body to respond differently from its natural responses, and to do that takes more than just free sparring.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1208375]Sure and one of the best ways is to out-strike him :)[/QUOTE]

That won’t be “SC flavour” IMO. I though “flavour” means to use the strong part of your style, and not to use the weak part of your style, or borrow skill from other styles.

“Cross training” guys don’t talk about “flavour” for that reason.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1208284]I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?[/QUOTE]

If the students aren’t fighting “with the flavor of the style”, the problem isn’t the students, the problem is the style and the instructor.

If you are trying to get your students to “look” a certain way, you’ve missed the whole point of effectiveness.

I’d say this need to “look like your style” is one of the main things that differentiates a less effective traditional style from a more effective modern one.

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1208377]I don’t agree to starting to early, it usually just helps natural abilities improve, not to learn the do the so called art.

The idea of an art is to reprogram the body to respond differently from its natural responses, and to do that takes more than just free sparring.[/QUOTE]

You learn to fight by fighting and the sooner the better and that has been proven to be the case over the centuries.

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[QUOTE=LaRoux;1208380]If the students aren’t fighting “with the flavor of the style”, the problem isn’t the students, the problem is the style and the instructor.

If you are trying to get your students to “look” a certain way, you’ve missed the whole point of effectiveness.

I’d say this need to “look like your style” is one of the main things that differentiates a less effective traditional style from a more effective modern one.[/QUOTE]

There are distinct advantages about fighting with a style “outside the box”.
The issues is that the more “distinct” a system is the MORE “cross-testing” they need.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1208381]You learn to fight by fighting and the sooner the better and that has been proven to be the case over the centuries.[/QUOTE]

There is training and testing, knowing the difference is good.

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;1208388]There is training and testing, knowing the difference is good.[/QUOTE]

Quite true.

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I was rolling day one in BJJ, and sparring day one in Kyokushin. Yes you take some beating in the beginning, but I believe you learn faster what works and what does not. There is no fantasy of how great a fighter you are, you know exactly where you are at compared to others. A very humbling experience.

Compare this to when I traind wing chun and all we did was forms, chi sau and maybe the dummy. We had guys who where total not in fighting shape. They could not do fifty push ups, had bellies and in general looked soft. But they all walking around like the just won the UFC title. I think with out contact one becomes deluded about ones abilities

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[QUOTE=maxattck;1208394]I was rolling day one in BJJ, and sparring day one in Kyokushin. Yes you take some beating in the beginning, but I believe you learn faster what works and what does not. There is no fantasy of how great a fighter you are, you know exactly where you are at compared to others. A very humbling experience.

Compare this to when I traind wing chun and all we did was forms, chi sau and maybe the dummy. We had guys who where total not in fighting shape. They could not do fifty push ups, had bellies and in general looked soft. But they all walking around like the just won the UFC title. I think with out contact one becomes deluded about ones abilities[/QUOTE]

Indeed.
You do NOT get pummeled and beaten to a pulp when you start sparring BUT you do get introduced to TWO of the most important things you will have to deal with in a real fight:
Getting hit and pain.

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[QUOTE=maxattck;1208394]I was rolling day one in BJJ, and sparring day one in Kyokushin.[/QUOTE]
In articifial intellegence, this is called “backward search”. You start from the leaf and search all the way back to the root. Since for any leaf, there is only 1 root. For any root, there can be many leafs. The “backward search” is always faster than the “forward search”.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1208397]In articifial intellegence, this is called “backward search”. You start from the leaf and search all the way back to the root. Since for any leaf, there is only 1 root. For any root, there can be many leafs. The “backward search” is always faster than the “forward search”.[/QUOTE]

I would call it learning from someone better. If they are using same attributes as you, then you can copy them. Physical outside movement’s are easy to copy , its the things you can’t see that are hard to copy.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1208396]Indeed.
You do NOT get pummeled and beaten to a pulp when you start sparring BUT you do get introduced to TWO of the most important things you will have to deal with in a real fight:
Getting hit and pain.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree totally. The only way to get past the fear of taking shots and recovering from getting hit is too get hit or submitted. Eventually you stop worrying about it, and it free up your game.

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To an extent. Some people walk right into dangerous situations because they think they can eat a few.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1208284]
How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?[/QUOTE]

Easier for some “styles” than others. Fortunately for me, our system “looks like” kickboxing. Gross motor skills prevail. Of couse, in private training we have greater range of movement, more rotation and follow-through, but in Lama style simplicity and redundancy of technique is stressed.

.

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[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1208284]I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LaRoux;1208380]If you are trying to get your students to “look” a certain way, you’ve missed the whole point of effectiveness.[/QUOTE]

I’d have to agree with that.

It’s not supposed to be about mimicking. It’s about actually mastering the functional skills.

The students automatically will look like Mantis if they train the skills until mastered.

The students probably have a lot of stuff that they’ve been exposed to, but haven’t mastered. So when under pressure, it all falls apart.

Start them sparring with just one technique that they have to train with intensity. Shin kick for example. Make them spar only with shin kick for hours and hours, until they learn every aspect about using that kick and how to counter.

Then give them something else. Like right grab, left punch to the face. Have them train that until they can nail it any time they want.

Then give them front kick. They can use only front kick when sparring. Make them do front kick until they can’t stand any more.

Now let them start combining only 2 techniques. Like shin kick and grab punch. Do it with intensity until it is automatic and they understand instinctively every possible way to use the 2 techniques together.

Keep going until they are combining 2 and 3 moves together correctly. Then dissallow single techniques. Force them to use only combinations. Single technique automatically loses the match.

Just keep coaching in a way that reinforces correct usage, even if some of the coaching is carried to an extreme.

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Not having seen your guys, I’ll agree with Bwang that footwork is probably the key. Students get enamoured with hands and forget footwork.
And also, as several people mentioned, hit hard. We use vests and start with just exercises to strike the body hard, or pad up a senior and let the junior try what he can. Coaches will wear 10oz gloves, but students only light ones.
Essentially, deconstruct the elements, footwork, balance and control in trapping/grappling, striking with power, then bring it all together, with only light gloves and mouthguard.
Lots of intermediate drills, with power and contact, leading to hard sparring when a student can execute properly.

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That^^^ and lot’s of leg training in a general sense. Well, whole body, I guess.
Being acrobatic will help you in so so many ways.
I find it amazing how many people in MA’s can’t even stand on one leg on a balance beam indefinitely.

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Not being born a praying mantis insect! :wink:

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While I think studying animals in combat is a great idea, I find that adding extra movement to mimic these animals is wasted movement. Sure it’s neat on stage. But it’s not necessary. Take the principles, leave the stylized extras for theater. If performance is your goal, cool. But if combat effectiveness is your goal, economy matters. We are humans, our bodies are unique and should be treated as such.

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[QUOTE=Bacon;1208363]
The revenge fantasy thing you’re putting words in my mouth. The reason I bash Obasi is because he’s a slugger. He fights like a gorilla and he’s insane.[/QUOTE]

shawn obassi is strong warrior of honor with heart of lion. if you were to stand in front of him your testicles would shrink inside yourbody.