Gung fu world

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Hi All I thought I would stir up the pot today…

I was having a discussion with a few friends about the state of the gung fu world of today. As the old generation grows older and dies out it seems through miscommunication and misinterpation that the gung fu world is not what it should be. There are only a handful of schools out there that still sticks to fighting as the theory and concepts in a given system dictates. I have noticed most of the schools of today teach the forms and when it comes to there combat they fall into the KICKBOXING dilemma. Even though the kicks and punches and throws are simple base techniques in the system but that is far as they go. Is it possible for someone to spar another person using the concept of the system with gloves on. I believe it is but it seems that it is not being tried. This can be seen in the all gung fu tournaments with the continuous sparring matches. Are these fighters skilled? I say yes but are they using their gung fu I say only to a small level. The state of shan shou is a great one full contact fighting but it is still kick boxing fought on a platform with throws. You see boxing skills and wrestling throws or shuai jiao throws and kicks. Even though this is a good way to test your skill you are not demonstrating your gung fu skills. I am not putting down these great men who have the heart to step on the platform but I would love to see these men actually use their styles in the ring.

With the advent of NHB not one gung fu stylist has come forward and used there given style. They use their kickboxing skills and throws as well as grappling. There is nothing wrong with this at all even if they are successful but this makes gung fu look like it is in a sorry state. People who had interest in studying looks and say or wonder if they are better off studying MMA because you can not tell the Difference between the two. Which is not a good thing.

I know with this statement everyone is going to say well I use my tech in the traditional sense. Even I had to reevaluate my training. To compensate for a grappler I had to train my grip to adapt my tech for attempt to take my legs. I had to modify my sprawling tech while applying my traditional tech and theory. I would love to see a NHB gung fu match on the lei tai stage with no glove as it is now legal in most states and I would love to compete in one.

The state of the shan shou is good but it can better. We have thai boxers, wrestlers, people with lil or no gung fu skills with a good amount of kickboxing and grappling skills dominating the circuit. I digress on that topic as these men on the lei tai stage are all warriors but I do not aspire to be there level but go beyond it.

I would love to see the wing chun stylist go at it with a choy la fut stylist slug it out with chain punches and long arm tech. I would love to see a mantis stylist go against the iron bridge of a hung gar stylist but what can you do.

The only thing I can say to you all is evaluate the way you do fight is it just using bits and pieces of your system to add to your kickboxing or are you using your whole system in the way it was created to be used. If you practice bong sau or a diu sau ****** use it or don’t bother training it. If you practice training chin na apply it and see if it works. Shuai jiao has the meanest throws I have ever seen. They are touted as being the best around. SO throw the person and if done right they shouldn’t get up afterwards.

I know you are all going to ask do I compete in shan shou or NHB. I never had the chance to enter a tournament but I do train for the event (full contact with gear) I also like to test my skill with no gear. I test my skills and I don’t mind getting my A$$ kicked to see if it works. I rather bleed and receive bruises in a friendly match then get killed trying to defend myself on the street. I am not immune to the kickboxing construct and I do mantis. I thought everything I was doing was gung fu but I found out it wasn’t. I meet someone who showed me hand speed that can’t be followed and other things that opened my eyes in just a few movements. I now am striving to study GUNG FU and use it the way it was intended to be used. I just hope I am not the only one who thinks like this.

Vince Night

“Never talk because with one word you can lose your life”

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I agree with you. The kung fu world is in a sorry state. I feel its our duty to weed out the stuff that is bad, if we want kung fu to stay alive.

For traditional kung fu go to www.taishingpekkwar.com

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Obviously you feel very strongly about this topic seeing as you posted it on just about every board, and twice on the Wing Chun board :smiley:
My response is on the Wing Chun board, by the way…

“Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can’t run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won’t last!”

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To true I am a little over zealous onthis topic lol but hey I am like that on a lot of things i hold dear to my heart

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Do you think Women play a vital role in traditional kung fu, rather than just in modern wushu? Do you beleive that woman can be really good? Like Jade Fox in crouching tiger? Woman are supposed to be stronger with chi kung. What is your opinion on this?

Carpe Diem.

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Women in Gung Fu

WOMEN Please they dont need to be in the kung fu world …I am only kidding

Actually skill knows no bias. A woman or man they both play viatl roles in keeping gung fu alive. I have even met some women that can whoop anyones A$$. anyone man or women only become as good as they want by training hard. As far as teh chi gung thing I never really heard of anything on that subject..

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Good post

Im with you on keeping Kung Fu real. Its for made to be used for combat and the way i have been shown is EVERY movement has some application often several. I think the arts are slowly being lost over time and due to things like cultural barriers its harder to pass on the information.
I think its up to us new generation of students to not be complacent and to actively find out how to use the arts as there meant to and not simply belive thats its just ‘a training movement’ or other such cop outs.
As for Staceys comment:
YES!!! They always have and always will…
There have been a LOT of female grandmasters in various styles of kung fu. My style had Mok Gwai Lan who was a Hung Ga grandmaster and the wife of Wong Fai Hung. Yim Wing Chun named Wing Chun. Her Sifu was also a nun by the name of Ng Mai.
Women are made of the same stuff men are i dont care what anyone says… flesh blood bone water SAME. The only difference is how you learn to make what you have work. There is no natural athlete in kung fu everyone starts from scratch. Many women in my experience learn kung fu very well as they learn whats there and listen better to there bodies.

you cant win all the time but you cant always lose either…

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CAN KUNG FU BE SPORTIFIED FOR MMA?- A few thoughts from the middle of the night

When we think of Kung Fu, thoughts of Chi, eye-gouges, bone breaking, and various fist types come to mind. With all of these lethally oriented attacks, the question of whether or not Kung Fu can be modified to fit into today’s MMA tournaments is a valid question. Looking at the predominant styles found in MMA fighters, we see BJJ, various Judo theories, Muay Thai, JJJ, and “submission fighting techniques”(essentially groundwork). These styles are fairly grappling oriented and focus on sport techniques that can be used on the street but don’t have the inherent permanence of, say, a mantis strike to the throat. In my own personal experience, it would seem that COMBAT effectiveness was paramount to one’s ability to progress in CMA. Sure, my kwoon had contact tournaments but these resembled kick boxing with some chin na more than an MMA fight. With this in mind, it makes sense to draw the conclusion that CMA is more suited to the person looking to save their life rather than their title. But looking purely at technique rather than philosophy, if we extract all eye-gouging, ear biting, groin striking, and throat tearing from CMA styles, we are left with a more fluid and powerful style of kickboxing with a good dose of joint manipulation and some takedowns. These are sport worthy, but not good enough to make MMA fighting. To make it MMA ready, we would need to add a little ground work. Conditioning is already there, we just need to partake in it. The last thing lacking is aggressiveness. This does not mean that a practitioner or style is inherently peaceful(though many are) but that general technique is from a self-defense state. For example, I learned a number of ways to deal with an opponent who has one hand around my neck in a behind the neck strangle hold. The fact that I would not let him get there notwithstanding, this does not aid the MMA fighter. Most people would not let their opponent begin a match in this fashion, but elect to draw up to each other in ready stances. To fix that, we can modify and change tactics to suit the needs of the situation(as any good practitioner should be able to do). But something is still not right. Now that we have essentially diluted Kung Fu, as was done to the Japanese “Jutsu” styles when changed to “do”, we no longer have Kung Fu as it is, but a super kickboxing style. Sure, it will work in the ring, but it does not have the CMA flavor. It does not have the Chi, or inner spirit work so necessary to proper use of a deadly technique. It lacks the true deadliness the founders needed to survive in their times. It loses the mystique and flavor that makes it Kung Fu. Granted, an MMA fighter could use Chi, meditate, practice Qi Gong, and Iron Body, but it takes so long to be good at it, they would be too old to compete(in theory). Final analysis is, yes Kung Fu has all the tools to become sport, but to become sport, it would not be Kung Fu. There are plenty of styles out there that are already tailored to the needs of the prize fighter, so there is no need to change Kung Fu for these purposes. Because of this, we may never see the end of the Kung Fu vs. MMA debate. The rules would change the spirit of Kung Fu so much to make it competition ready that it would not be satisfactory to the traditional students of CMA, and while MMA could probably hold its own in a fight worthy of the spirit of Kung Fu, it would be so barbaric, bloody, and possibly deadly, that it would not be worth it to settle the debate. After all, who wants to die to prove that one style is better than the other? We did that enough in the Feudal eras.

Orientation of training is what makes the difference. A wrestler could easily modify his technique to make it deadly, but that is not the purpose of his training. His is a path of sport, not mortal combat. This is the key difference between MMA and Kung Fu, the orientation and reason for training. If you were interested in sport, you would not study eye gouges, just as if you were interested in self-preservation, you would not waste time repeatedly jabbing the opponent with a boxer’s flair.

“The thorn pricks only those who would harm the rose.”

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Concerning the life of Kung Fu

As far as whether or not Kung fu will survive, I believe it will. There are a lot of McKwoons/McDojos around but there always have been and always will be. Our biggest concern should be educating the general population about us and our art.

Women have been, are, and always will be important to our art. Read Thomas Chen’s sword post, or look at Robin, Jenny Liu JKD, they rock.
-ZC

“The thorn pricks only those who would harm the rose.”

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CMA SPORT

CMA in a mma arena is possible but CMA is not all groin grabs or eye gouges or breaks. We have chin na and other grappiling tech that can counter a ground attack. We can also fight on the ground it is called ditang ( ground boxing)… As far as a real fight situation there is nuthing closer than in the ring.. just because you can not bite or gouge the eyes this just takes away a small number of techniques. I have never seen a MMA deflect a punch or use a diu sau to hhok a punch and and counter.. CMA can be effective in the ring it just has to be trained like a combat art plain and simple learn to fight your fight and not try to fight the other persons fight,… in the ring you can not be so ( lethal) but a knock out is a knock out if they shoot in you see alot of people sprawl out as you sprawl aplly a sealing breath tech or eagle claw or elbow behind the head or something.. make them play your game