on my job, it is the grapplers who have had the most success
Maybe, that could be because there always testing what they do have in a live enviroment, builds better psychological attributes.
[QUOTE=xcakid;757445]I’d like to see these BJJ guys grapple on concrete or asphalt with poles in the way, broken glass, nail and other debris. :D[/QUOTE]
I’d like to see the TMA guy do the same after the bjj guy takes him down…
I’d like to see the TMA guy do the same after the bjj guy takes him down…
Would fail worse than the ground kat I would wager, but the point that I was hoping to make was on Rorian’s funny comment.
All this is moot.
The guy in the shirt didn’t have a chance. He didn’t react and counter to that first blow. No amount of show boating, shoe and shirt removal, and setting up in stance, is going to forgive the fact that on that first weak ass swing he didn’t flatten the guys face.
THAT is the difference in a real street fight.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;757643]I’d like to see the TMA guy do the same after the bjj guy takes him down…[/QUOTE]
I would hope that in a street fight, I would have my buddy beating him over the head with something while he was clinched up with me. Or kicking him like that othe guy in the Eddie Bravo vid posted on this forum.
Again let me clarify my position here.
I am not saying BJJ is a lousy art. However the comments made in that video posted is representing BJJ as the end all be all in a street confrontation. That is total BS!!! And to those that buy into it. I have some neighborhoods to take you to that will prove you different.
I will admit BJJ is probably the end all, be all in one on one ring, tournament and/or full contact organized fighting. But in the streets, I don’t think it would fair well at all. Based on my observations it would fair worse than most MA. Although I would probably get my behind whipped badly fighting a BJJ guy one on one, I would be willing to bet that if myself and a BJJ guy(with no other training other than BJJ) take on the same 3 guys with weapons like a club or knives, I would fair better than the BJJ guy.
The main factor why it would fail out there is that: the main training is going to ground and submitting/pummeling your opponent. Based on 80 of the street fights I have witnessed and the handfull of the ones I have been personally involved in, this is the worse thing you can do. Get caught up and focused on one opponent. In a street fight you are not only fighting one person. If that person is with friends it becomes a mob like “pile on top” mentality. In the streets a lot of factors can arise. You can be fighting one guy while another one of his buddies come up behind you and blows your head of with a .357 or stab you or hit you over the head with something. You can have a guy just come up to you and punch without warning. You can have a guy ask you for change while his buddy stabs you in the back.
And again as a clarification, I am not saying that Kenpo or Arnis is the best for street fight. However, in the systems I have been with, we did train in a mob style fighting. Not to stand toe to toe but to learn how to maneuver so that you can get away from the situation. While at Villari Shaolin Kempo, whomever wanted to shell out the extra cash, would be able to take a basic handgun course and tactical firearms courses engaging and evading multiple targets. How many other systems do that?
Even then there are flaws in those systems. There are flaws in any system. That flaw is that there are sooooo many variables in a street fight, it would take centuries to train for them all. On the other had, those two systems that I have studied took care of even just a half a handfull of those variables. Firearms training, defending and evading multiple weapons attack, and evading attackers rather than getting caught up in “taking them to the ground”.
That is my 2 pesos on the subject. As with anybody, I am right till proven wrong 
[QUOTE=xcakid;757660]I will admit BJJ is probably the end all, be all in one on one ring, tournament and/or full contact organized fighting. But in the streets, I don’t think it would fair well at all. Based on my observations it would fair worse than most MA.[/quote]
based on my experiences, that is incorrect. bjj training gives the practitioner constant practice, live against a resisting opponent. the live sparring also conditions you psychologically, as bj2 mentioned. You are given a fighting mindset and aggressiveness. As I stated, of the guys I’ve worked with on my job, it was the TMA guys who got beaten up and later quit. Wonder why that is? Now of course I am not saying that tma is useless, but I am saying that sport arts in general fare better than tma tend to think, becasue they don’t look past things like “all bjj guys will try to take you to the ground and arm bar you”.
Although I would probably get my behind whipped badly fighting a BJJ guy one on one, I would be willing to bet that if myself and a BJJ guy(with no other training other than BJJ) take on the same 3 guys with weapons like a club or knives, I would fair better than the BJJ guy.
three guys with weapons, you both get severly hurt, possibly die. 1 on 1, I still give the advantage to the bjj guy. he’s gonna smother the guy’s space, not giving his opponent room to swing or stab, control the weapon wielding arm and deal with it. Afterall, that is already his main strategy anyway.
my previous kungfu school did multiple attacker training.
initially you start on defense only against 3 attackers for 3 minutes. eventually you will be allowed to fight back.
fun stuff.
in addition our first form you learn, xiao hong quan, the partner drills are 2-3 attackers at once. so you initially start learning application on that form against 1 person then lead it up to 3.
also fun stuff.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;757663]based on my experiences, that is incorrect. bjj training gives the practitioner constant practice, live against a resisting opponent. the live sparring also conditions you psychologically, as bj2 mentioned. You are given a fighting mindset and aggressiveness. As I stated, of the guys I’ve worked with on my job, it was the TMA guys who got beaten up and later quit. Wonder why that is? Now of course I am not saying that tma is useless, but I am saying that sport arts in general fare better than tma tend to think, becasue they don’t look past things like “all bjj guys will try to take you to the ground and arm bar you”.
[/QUOTE]
We are in agreement. It is all based on how one is trained/trains.
At one of the schools I attended we had what was called kill nights. Where we would gear up and go at it full contact. We would practice with up to 5 attacker(depeding on how many people show up). The goal was mainly to get from the back of the floor to the front door. More often than not I never made it out past the halfway point. But it was a good drill. Not always a safe drill. In the time I was there, we’ve had one busted knee, I’ve had a dislocated ankle, and few other scrapes and bruises as well as raging headaches after a knock out.
Yes there are few TMA schools that train this way. Fear of lawsuits, low number of enrollments are probably the main reasons. I would even go out on a limb to say that there are no TMA school that trains this way these days.
Although your BJJ school may train differently, you gotta admit, the majority of BJJ schools out there emphasizes the one on one submission fighting.
What is most disappointing to me about the scenario and narration depicted in this clip is that it promotes the idea that self-defense is about reacting violently to any chump who happens to say something you don’t like. Unless you are doped up on your own bloated ego, you don’t slap a stranger and then challenge him to a duel. That might be a good way to start “fighting” but it has nothing to do with keeping yourself safe.
Self-defense (which is what is being touted in this clip) has nothing to do with proving what a big man you are, and everything to do with not letting someone beat the snot out of you. All this video proves is that if you pick your opponent and surroundings carefully, you can make good use of your training. No surprise there.
[QUOTE=BraveMonkey;757672]What is most disappointing to me about the scenario and narration depicted in this clip is that it promotes the idea that self-defense is about reacting violently to any chump who happens to say something you don’t like. Unless you are doped up on your own bloated ego, you don’t slap a stranger and then challenge him to a duel. That might be a good way to start “fighting” but it has nothing to do with keeping yourself safe.
Self-defense (which is what is being touted in this clip) has nothing to do with proving what a big man you are, and everything to do with not letting someone beat the snot out of you. All this video proves is that if you pick your opponent and surroundings carefully, you can make good use of your training. No surprise there.[/QUOTE]
i agree fully
The other guy in that video was Hugo Duarte - a very good Brazillian fighter in his own right.
so should we correctly label this vid
“clash of the ego’s”
??
xcakid
You are a moron!
[QUOTE=Dragon Warrior;758002]xcakid
You are a moron![/QUOTE]
Not the first time I have been called that. However…
Here’s a couple of streetfights that have been posted on this forum. And bear in mind. This is lacking another element in most street fights. Guns and knives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW_cn8uLM8U&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyokcLPl8wM
Based on what was posted on this thread regarding the “realities of a streetfight” that the Gracies claim, how will that be effective? So can you elaborate why you find me mornic? Or do you just feel like saying that cause I hit a nerve? 
Seems you train in BJJ. Elaborate on you training regarding street fights. I would be willing to bet that majority of your training is with one on one sparring method. Sure that conditions you for an actual fight. Again I do not contest the fact the BJJ is hands down the best in that. Your school may train differently, but 100 of the BJJ schools I have witnessed train is one on one ring style fighting.
Ever heard of the saying “train how your fight, fight how you train”?
[QUOTE=xcakid;758194]Not the first time I have been called that. However…
Here’s a couple of streetfights that have been posted on this forum. And bear in mind. This is lacking another element in most street fights. Guns and knives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW_cn8uLM8U&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyokcLPl8wM
Based on what was posted on this thread regarding the “realities of a streetfight” that the Gracies claim, how will that be effective? So can you elaborate why you find me mornic? Or do you just feel like saying that cause I hit a nerve?
Seems you train in BJJ. Elaborate on you training regarding street fights. I would be willing to bet that majority of your training is with one on one sparring method. Sure that conditions you for an actual fight. Again I do not contest the fact the BJJ is hands down the best in that. Your school may train differently, but 100% of the BJJ schools I have witnessed train is one on one ring style fighting.
Ever heard of the saying “train how your fight, fight how you train”?[/QUOTE]
You didnt hit a nerve, you are just so ignorant about martial arts and fighting that it bothers me that you have the right to state your opinion. You obviously have been brainwashed by a cult leader and have never trained effectively for a real fight.
But whatever, believe what you want to believe. Keep training to defeat multiple attackers. Hopefully one day you will be able to test what you have been taught and after you get your ass kicked you can thank your sifu for taking your money and teaching you bull****.
[QUOTE=xcakid;758194]
Seems you train in BJJ. Elaborate on you training regarding street fights. I would be willing to bet that majority of your training is with one on one sparring method. [/QUOTE]
To train to fight against multiple opponents, one must supplement standard BJJ training with training that specifically addresses that issue, both standing and on the ground. Same with weapons.
Working against multiple opponents has some interesting paradoxes. One of them is that open space for movement is your friend when you are standing, but your enemy when you are on the ground.
That’s an interesting paradox. I also find that to hold true. I would also add that weapons adhere to the same paradox. When you have a weapon, it is your friend. When you don’t have one, weapons are your enemy.
That made me laugh.
[QUOTE=Dragon Warrior;758332]
But whatever, believe what you want to believe. Keep training to defeat multiple attackers. Hopefully one day you will be able to test what you have been taught and after you get your ass kicked you can thank your sifu for taking your money and teaching you bull****.[/QUOTE]
Dude, apparently you did not read my post completely before going on the offensive. I don’t claim to train to defeat multiple attackers. Matter of fact my whole outlook on MA seems to differ than most on this board. In a streetfight, I would probably draw my knife or firearms and get the f-ck out dodge. I am not gonna stay there and slug it out like I was in my dojo/kwoon/ring.
I just said, and please read, that most of the styles I have been involved with addressed on TACTICS, EVADING and perhaps SURVIVING multiple attackers. This was done by occassionally sparring with mulitple attackers both with and without weapons. The other point I was making is that I have never seen a BJJ school that even dealt or touched on this subject. It seems that most (I am not saying all since I have not seen all schools) BJJ schools train on one on one ring or tournament style fighting. This whole thing stemmed from the comment on the video posted claiming the realities of a street fight. I disagree with that comment that a street fight is what was being depicted in that video. That is a BS streetfight. That is basically a ring fight done outdoors. And if you buy into that, I wish you good luck as well, should you come across a REAL streetfight.
And perhaps there is truth in my “ignorance”. My only involvement I have had in BJJ is what I have seen in various schools I have observed over the years and a few friends that are taking or have taken the art. However, based on everything I have seen, so far my conclusions have been that:
- Probably the best ring/tournament style out there
- Will be very effective in a one on one fight
- Like most MA out there, severely lacking in street concepts.
- Severely lacking in the other aspects of TMA. For example the internal arts aspects of it. Or the softer side of it. How many here will still be doing BJJ at age 70?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;758368]Working against multiple opponents has some interesting paradoxes. One of them is that open space for movement is your friend when you are standing, but your enemy when you are on the ground.[/QUOTE]
Ah, but a choke point against multiples is a gift.