You are correct sir!
“I have also met very good martial artists that in reality could not fight”
Liokault - would you mind explaining this a little?
As for self defense vs fighting, What if I said that a good martial artist should be able to defend him/herself? Or should they?
Ok if we are calling Wushu danceing a martial art then i have seen many nice fast forms done by guys who have never hit a bag or done any real resistance training or sparring.
I have also met black belts in traditional styles who thought that they were good till the first time they came and tried to fight full contact…the first time you get hit in the head hard is something of a shock for them.
Also a good martial artist is not nesecerly good at self defense as no matter how fast he or she is or how hard they can hit if they think its ok to get drunk then walk down dark alleys or be totaly unaware of their surroundings then they are not good at self defense (this is obviousley only a small example).
Again good martial artists are not nessecerly good at fighting as they may be great at sparring with a guy who is interested in his defense but put them against a guy who is just going to walk forwards hitting to the head and is not worried about taking a few hits them self. This same guy will not even probably make the martial artist aware that any hitting is about to take place.
I dont consider myself a martial artist - yet.
At the moment I am a individual engaged in personal combat TRAINING. I train for different ranges of personal combat. I train "realistically’ - whatever that really means - I deal with knives, sticks, firearms, fists and other bodyparts.
I can break bones and draw blood and fight, and Im sure eventually I will be a Martial Artist when my skill at combat becomes an art.
However, I agree with ap, and specially take intrest in his definition of Martial Artist:
"art is, according to some definitions, interpretive and expressive. so personally, i prefer to define ‘martial art’ as a personal expression inspired or informed by combat. for some people, that inspiration will be less interpretive and more realistic. for others, the opposite is true. "
nicely said.
Okay…
Let me take a crack at this.
I think Martial Artist aspire to be educated combatants. Fighter don’t. A good analog to illustrate the difference might the difference between a car engineer and an auto mechanic. Both have a running knoweledge of cars, but one designs and attempts to foresee and therefore eliminate problems with a car, and the others gets his hands greasy fixing the problems.
At the elemental level their both the same, but look at the situation from a different vantage.
Anyway, I’ve got to go. I shouldn’t have started this, because I have so much more to say about it. I’ll try the add later.
Good thread.
U vs. U…
I agree! Cool thread. I think that in this modern age where the term fighter = a MMA, the words say it all. The terms martial arts and martial science have often been used interchangeably. The distinction, between MAs as “dao” (in Japanese “do”) or the philosophical “way” and MAs as a purely combative science or defensive/offensive “art” (in Japanese “jutsu”), is often vague. That aside they both use the precepts of war as a means to fight the battle that rages in us all.
A lot of us will never have to fight in a street fight. The people who accomplish that are, in a way, one step ahead of many of the MAs “Masters”, past and present. The aim of most martial arts is awareness, self-confidence, smart noninjurious training, camraderie, enhanced physical/mental health, self-preservation, preparedness, discipline and a myriad of other adjectives. Most traditional “masters” could fight very well. Many lived to be beyond 80, before the turn of the 20th century. I’d say they got the self-preservation part right, for sure.
Some people get into martial-related sports as a means to defend themselves and to test their mettle. That’s another path to self-identity. I would classify these individuals as more “Marticians” (a la Robert Smith) than Martial Artists. Great technicians of fighting principles. I think they probably have just as good a chance to defend themselves on the streets against some untrained or even moderately trained or experienced ruffian, as an advanced practitioner of a good classical or traditional style. Do they need the philosophical underpinnings in order to be considered “martialists” or martial artists or scientists?. Ask any Mixed-Martial Artist what he thinks, and I’m sure he will say the answer is in the name. Will any of these people that train in martial sports like Shidokan, Muay Thai, full-contact karate, wrestling, boxing or whatever be able to use their fighting techs when they are 60+ like they could in their 20s-40s? I don’t know. Prob not. Modern asian combat sports are a recent phenomenon. Will these sports masters live to be a healthy, fully functional, uncrippled 80+? Modern medicine says probably not.
Train for you.
P.S. I consider GJJ a Martial Art/Science. Helio Gracie is almost 90, and he still does his stuff very effectively!