Gan Sau and Quan Sau?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=monji112000;786776]If you are going to cover with the Gun sao, I would suggest two things, 1) don’t hit the shin hit the ankle if you can.
[/quote]
Umm…more power is generated the further you get from the center of a swinging object.

  1. if its a high kick line your shoulder up with the opponents leg, that way you have a straight line from your elbow ( area near the elbow is a good place to cover with) then you have a thicker bone against a thin bone.

Better than taking it on the chin…

The example that was shown uses a different idea. Both work just fine :smiley: I have had nice welts from training, but no broken bones :smiley:
Good to hear, but I doubt any of your classmates are kicking you at full force.

YungChun so you are telling me that if I can move my hands, I can in the same frame of time move my whole body? I honestly don’t know how you move but I can move my hands a hell of allot faster than I can move my whole body.
If you don’t like the Gun sao thats fine with me, I think its laughable how many so called fighters can’t even apply the basics. I am like the bottom of barrel,… it just blows my mind :smiley:

The milliseconds aside–yes, the time difference is minimal. As stated–trying to get off the line is better.

I often wonder what people do in Martial arts schools.. if they don’t fight do they … play ping pong..?

This is why we’re questioning even using that technique–because people that fight wouldn’t do that as a “trained” manuver.

Here a nice idea outside of chain punch, pak sao or push kick can you actually give a set of techniques of a real fighting situation?
gun sao, qwan sao, low kick (s).

what about a basic boxer jab, jab cross? how would answer that (excluding jaming in like a moron chain punching, or push kick or pak sao)?

Could you rephrase this? What exactly are you asking here?

22

If you don’t like the Gun sao thats fine with me, I think its laughable how many so called fighters can’t even apply the basics. I am like the bottom of barrel,… it just blows my mind

monji,

A gan sao against a kick is going to HURT YOUR ARM if it connects dead-on. And it’s probably going to hurt you much more than it hurts the opponent’s leg.

I don’t agree that this is a basic defence to a kick. Having done quite a bit of MT, I think you will not be able to defend a decent kick with a Gan. In MT, hurting your arm is as good as hurting your body: It’s weakening you down.

The principles of WC which guide the application of techniques are often just common sense. If I block a shin with my arm, it’s hard vs hard. That’s hurting my arm. Don’t do it.

Gan sao is applied against other techniques. As is Qwan sao. Most often they are used in a bridged situation on the opponent’s arms to redirect them away from you.

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[QUOTE=monji112000;786776]
YungChun so you are telling me that if I can move my hands, I can in the same frame of time move my whole body?

I honestly don’t know how you move but I can move my hands a hell of allot faster than I can move my whole body.
[/quote]
Absolutely faster to move the body <which should be moving anywaydoh!> because every inch you move in or away will reduce the force you need to take and it takes less “thinking time”. See we’re not talking about when you know what is coming like in a demo or when your buddy throws some flip floppy kick in the school, we’re talking about when you don’t know it’s coming and it has POWER…

The time it takes to perceive and select a defense <higher brain processing/visual cortex lag> and move both hands/arms over to one side of the body and make a quan will take LONGER than it will to move your body a much smaller distanceif you’re talking gong sau then yes it’s fast but it is WEAK and this and any parry or block should be used in combination with body MOVEMENT into a <safer> position to counter, which you should be doing anyway… Anyone who advocates standing in one place for this stuff <being reactive> like a statue, and taking the power, IMO does not understand the problem or is thinking in terms of light or no contact point fighting.

Movement away from force is natural and alive, trying to figure out in a millisecond which combination of two handed blocks to use is not efficient, will introduce more reaction lag and possibly get your arm/hand brokena common injury when you try that kind of stuff.. Real fighters are thinking ATTACK and not defenseblocking… The attack IS the defense…

Water that stays in motion never grows stale, baby.. :slight_smile:

Be like water my friendwater that is trying to kick the crap out of someone, that is… :smiley:

24

thats fine, if you don’t like to use Gun sao, it doesn’t hurt my feelings. I believe its best to learn how to apply something, try it out, then decide if you like it. I can name allot of things I can’t use for whatever reason.

I think we are talking about two distance situations, 1 someone walks up and kicks you with a hard MT style kick. 2 you are surprised for whatever reason and you are kicked with little time to react. If you want to put two hands up like two tan saos that works too, but I would qwan soa if you are going to do that. Qwan sao is 10 times more powerful because of the way you are placing your hands and you are redirecting. The only problem is how do you know he will kick you high? what if its a mid kick? Thats why I said gun sao it covers a large area.

You must also realize that not everyone today and in history kicked with a MT style round kick. So what was more effective at one point for general kicks may be less effective. This varies from fighter to fighter. If you are a person who trains with lots of people, and spars allot with various styles you will find this out quickly.

I honestly don’t see out running a hard MT kick by evading it. Most of all not when surprised. You may have dealt with something and made mistake suddenly you are facing a kick. You could try and kick the supporting leg And many other techniques.. but I personally believe you are less likely when the time comes in that situation to do that. Most people will not react or just put their hands up.

If you assume you are faster always, stronger always, fearless always, react perfectly always then sure just run in and punch the guy or better yet evade the kick.

oh and a answer to my question (one possible answer).
parry with a qwan, while making some distance, gun sao, then uppercut, followed by a knee.

:smiley:

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[QUOTE=Lugoman;786441]I’m just exploring the possible uses of these two WC techniques. What do others use these techniques for?

We were doing drills using Gan Sau to defend against mid level round kicks and I didn’t seem to see a purpose for that Tan Sau to be there. So…

Why is the Tan Sau in there? Why not just a Gan or Die Bong with a Wu Sau?[/QUOTE]

Hi,

Such interesting comments. I wanted to add a couple ideas to the original post. Gan sau doesn’t have a bong or tan. I assume you mean kwan sau. Gan sau, to me, seems to split or dig into the opponent. I think of a blade or a plow cutting into the other guy.

Kwan Sau seems to be more of a bong and tan as mentioned. Bong in my mind isn’t used to intercept, but a hand to dissipate. I wouldn’t want to use my bong sau to stop a kick. Like someone mentioned, it would be like stoping a baseball bat if the kicker was any good. I find kwan sau invaluable when your pressed and your about to lose your position. You can sometimes kwan to redirect the opponent and then follow up.

26

[QUOTE=monji112000;786895]
I honestly don’t see out running a hard MT kick by evading it. Most of all not when surprised. You may have dealt with something and made mistake suddenly you are facing a kick. You could try and kick the supporting leg And many other techniques.. but I personally believe you are less likely when the time comes in that situation to do that. Most people will not react or just put their hands up.
[/QUOTE]

Hands up is still correct (always guard yourself). Gan Sao puts one hand down. And it’s the hand on the side that the kick is coming from. If the kick is coming from the left you don’t want the left hand down. If it’s coming high, your right hand may not be strong enough to stop it.

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[QUOTE=monji112000;786895]
oh and a answer to my question (one possible answer).
parry with a qwan, while making some distance, gun sao, then uppercut, followed by a knee.

:D[/QUOTE]

Followed by a spinning back kick, he bounces off the car to the right, and using the momentum jumping off the brick wall to flying side-kick. And I finish in a horse-stance.

Too much planning will get you in trouble. Used to do this a lot in the Karate class: “Okay, he’s going to throw three reverse punches…the first will be an inside hooking block, then outside, then a downward foot-block to reverse-punch.”

Sounds great, demo is great, doesn’t work.

Peace,
Kenton Sefcik

28

I just watched a Gary Lam video last night, the 2nd dummy DVD. He advocates using the qan sau rather than the gan against round kicks.

Still blocking (or deflecting for you semantic warriors with your keyboard keun :D) with the arms and using the die bong which to me sees weaker than the gan… but it’s Gary Lam and I tend to trust his advice.

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[QUOTE=Lugoman;787461]I just watched a Gary Lam video last night, the 2nd dummy DVD. He advocates using the qan sau rather than the gan against round kicks.

Still blocking (or deflecting for you semantic warriors with your keyboard keun :D) with the arms and using the die bong which to me sees weaker than the gan… but it’s Gary Lam and I tend to trust his advice.[/QUOTE]
How is he suggesting applying that move in terms of energy and/or footwork and does he address any other options?

30

here is a clip of someone using the qwan sao to stop a round kick, also they use a bong lan gerk (similar to a qwan lan gerk), and also a tan lan gerk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hbittGBwo

here is another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXXx01FDJIg

I can honestly say if you time it correctly and its a high round house kick, it doesn’t matter how hard he kicks you, he will be the one hurting. But if you are wrong and its a low kick or mid kick…

for using the qwan sao the footwork is turn the horse, cover high to low.

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[QUOTE=monji112000;787483]
I can honestly say if you time it correctly and its a high round house kick, it doesn’t matter how hard he kicks you
[/quote]
Because you have been kicked by people that can kick really well at full power?

Even if this were the case there is the issue of accuracy and being able the deploy the correct move in question and in time..

“Don’t tell him which side” makes it harder doesn’t it?

Imagine if not only does he not tell you which side but he doesnt even tell you how high or which kick among 3 different kicks he will use or even if he is going to kick at all, or how many fake kicks he is going to make first; if he may also punch or go for a takedown or also play with distance and timing, feint…

Hmmmmm… Is it a little more clear how hard it will be to deploy? Add to this a really powerful kick, like a baseball back coming at you and it gets clearer–why you only really have time to attack in real fighting, IMO the defense should be part of the attack–does this move qualify?

Never intentionally take any hit at the point of maximum impact. Does this move abide by this rule? If not, this move is a hole in the doughnut of WC for me..

Beyond all this there is the question of who and why they would attack like this… A midlevel round kick is not a common attack in the street or really even in the Ring.. A high to high midlevel round kick, esp a REAR round kick, IMO cannot be stopped by lifting your knee, period.. It will circle around your leg and nail you in the head…if he’s is any good..

In terms of attacking after the move as in: move both arms to block, then enter and punch him–the range they use in that drill is off by about two feet and this will take too much time–by the time you block at kicking distance and then close he will already either be gone or attacking you at another angle..JMO

Again, if you are “surprised” by a kick and there is no time…then this move will not materialize any better or faster than move X, you’ll be kicked.

If you are ready as in a fight-fight then I say attacking, however anyone likes to do that, is a MUCH higher percentage.

Just my opinion.

I am still interested to see how Gary does this, if he does this at all and what he has to say about it..

PING: Ernie

Can you possibly lend any insight?

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[QUOTE=YungChun;787462]How is he suggesting applying that move in terms of energy and/or footwork and does he address any other options?[/QUOTE]

All he says is (to paraphrase) “the kwan forms a circle, Ah!” Which I assume somehow disipates the force of a kick?

I dunno. :confused:

33

Because you have been kicked by people that can kick really well at full power?

well I wouldn’t tell them that. :smiley: I may not be able to kick hard with my round kick, but I have been kick by people who can.

Even if this were the case there is the issue of accuracy and being able the deploy the correct move in question and in time..
its a pretty fast cover, because you are only turning your horse. Gun sao is faster.

Imagine if not only does he not tell you which side but he doesnt even tell you how high or which kick among 3 different kicks he will use or even if he is going to kick at all, or how many fake kicks he is going to make first; if he may also punch or go for a takedown or also play with distance and timing, feint…

I don’t need to imagine, I train with a drill that does that. Thats why I believe in the Gun sao. I trust what I have proven to myself. Despite that, many people once they have enough experience are able to predict if a kick is high or low based on body language and in motion movement. A nameless person here tought me that if you see his shoulder lift high it normally means it s a high kick. I have been observing and thats 100 true but I don’t have the reaction at the moment.

You aren’t taking the impact at max point you are stepping (this is the application) forward and turning the horse. You are cutting it slightly. None the less, the angle, timing, elbow, and redirecting are the reason why it works.

A high to high midlevel round kick, esp a REAR round kick, IMO cannot be stopped by lifting your knee, period.. It will circle around your leg and nail you in the head…if he’s is any good..

Honestly I don’t believe you have a clue. MT uses a similar cover. Lifting your knee isn’t what is only done. You have two ideas that use a similar method to stop a round kick. One you lift and swing it from the center to the side. The other is shock off the ground, jam your leg into the kick. You can take a *** allot of impact if you keep your leg structure and use your stance. I have been hit so hard that my ankles were sprained from the impact. But my legs were fine and I didn’t cave in like I see allot of people do. ( I was wearing thai shin guards).

by the time you block at kicking distance and then close he will already either be gone or attacking you at another angle..JMO

100% true nobody throws one punch or kick. People throw combinations. Most people do not wait. SO you must constantly cover. As soon as you cover with whatever technique, you have to automatically cover again ect.. If I qwan sao I jam in and tan sao punch then cover again and keep fighting.

You can’t wait to react, you will never move fast enough.

Again, if you are “surprised” by a kick and there is no time…then this move will not materialize any better or faster than move X, you’ll be kicked.

I firmly disagree. If you are surprised, any technique that requires 90% movement of the arms vrs the whole body drastically moving is much faster. The difference is saying it and doing it. If you condition yourself or if you just type something on the screen.

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[QUOTE=monji112000;787556]
I don’t need to imagine, I train with a drill that does that. Thats why I believe in the Gun sao. I trust what I have proven to myself. Despite that, many people once they have enough experience are able to predict if a kick is high or low
[/quote]
Waiting/watching so you can block? Total BS IMO…

Predicting = waiting = being reactive = nonsense…
[QUOTE=monji112000;787556]
Honestly I don’t believe you have a clue. MT uses a similar cover.
[/quote]
Likewise, grasshopper..

MT uses a “ta koon” which involves lifting the leg and connecting the knee to the elbow covering the whole side of the body… They do that because they are not deluded into thinking that they will be able to guess exactly where the kick will land..

If you are “surprised” you are going to get hit… That’s what “surprised” means–you were caught off guard. If you think when you are “surprised” that you are going to be able to move both your hands/arms over to the side and make a good quan sao, and put it just where that kick is going to land, etc, then either you were not surprised, my grandma was trying to kick you or you are on some good drugs…

A high round kick moves around you–that’s why they call it round the leg/knee lift will not be in the path of a high round kick, and no where near a rear round kick.. If it is then the person kicking is a moron.

[QUOTE=monji112000;787556]
You can’t wait to react, you will never move fast enough.
[/quote]
You are in conflict..

This is exactly the mindset you are employing here by thinking “block” which is what the quan is, and a complicated one at that–not a cover as in MT which does not attempt to meet the weapon, as the quan does.

The half assed movements shown in the clip “passed” because there was no power on those kicks… NONE.. no need to block those “kicks” just knock them on their butt.

Have someone swing a baseball bat at you at medium speed and try it… A really good kicker will have at least that much power if not more… Then see if you want to try to block it…

You and yours can go ahead and work all those cool blocks.. I and others will work our attacks..

35

Waiting/watching so you can block? Total BS IMO.
You must wait at least a moment, unless you are able to predict the future. Training in class to wait as long as you possible can and fighting are no the same thing.

A high round kick moves around you–that’s why they call it round the leg/knee lift will not be in the path of a high round kick, and no where near a rear round kick.. If it is then the person kicking is a moron.
If you jam into the kick IE turn into the kick and press with your hips you go directly into the kick.

We don’t block we cover. Block is ok I see a attack ok I block the attack ok I will attack know. two moments of thought for every one movement he does. Instead he attacks I cover and attack, then I cover were I am opened even if he doesn’t attack and attack at the same time. Constantly pressing or coming in and out.

MT uses a “ta koon” which involves lifting the leg and connecting the knee to the elbow covering the whole side of the body…
This is almost 99 the same as a tan sao lan gerk. the description you give is the same technique. I will also add that this isn’t the only “block” that MT fighters like to use. They often can tell were a kick will land and have blocks just for high kicks also.

I will add that you don’t even need to qwan sao or gun sao if its a high kick.
jamming tan sao with two tan saos or one with a hand to support it works fine and is really common in MT fights. (well they don’t call it a tan sao but its just about the same movement).

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[QUOTE=monji112000;787483]here is a clip of someone using the qwan sao to stop a round kick, also they use a bong lan gerk (similar to a qwan lan gerk), and also a tan lan gerk.
[/QUOTE]

Qwan sao. You were saying Gan sao before!

[QUOTE=monji112000;787483]
I can honestly say if you time it correctly and its a high round house kick, it doesn’t matter how hard he kicks you, he will be the one hurting. But if you are wrong and its a low kick or mid kick…

for using the qwan sao the footwork is turn the horse, cover high to low.[/QUOTE]

You’ve just pointed out the problem with Qwan sao. If the kick is lower than your top hand, you’re getting hit on the bong sao which isn’t particularly strong.

This is why in MT you use your knee not your opposite arm.