I’m sorry but we are very busy. Sifu doesn’t have that information readily available.
Thanks anyway.
For anyone who doesn’t know anything about Fu Jow Pai, it was brought to the United States by Sifu Wong Moon Toy who learned it from the founder Wong Bil Hong. Wong Bil Hong studied Hung Gar from Wong Fei Hong before creating Fu Jow Pai. The 2 styles are somewhat similar but still different.
Enlightment,
Do you have any insight what the differences are between the two styles, Fu-Jow Pai and Hung Gar?
Regards,
loquito
From the one form that I know, there seems to be more techniques using the tiger claw. Some of the movements in the form come straight out of Hung Gar. I only know one form so I don’t want to say the wrong thing and give the wrong impression.
I actually thought that Fu Jow Pai was created from Hark Fu Moon, as opposed to Hung Gar. It is taught along with Hung Gar because of Wong Fai Hung. Hark Fu Moon is older than Hung Gar. I study all three. This is something I’ve been pestering my sifu about lately. By the way, my kwoon is in Az. I don’t know if that’s close enough for you to be interested.
Friends,
This is paraphrased from Fu-Jow Pai history:
Wong Bil Hong, circa 1840s, was a master of Hung Gar. He learned Hung Gar from Wong Fay Hong.
During a duel w/another master in the court yard of the Hoy Hong Temple, Wong Bil Hong and his opponent were thrown apart by an elder monk, who invited them to discuss their differences. They settled their differences and then both men asked to learn the old monk’s art, Hark Fu Moon or Black Tiger.
Wong Bil Hong mastered the system and taught it to two people: his manservant and his nephew, Wong Moon Toy. Wong Bil Hong renamed the system “Fu-Jow Pai of the Hoy Hong Temple” in honor of the monk.
Soon after the deaths of Wong Bil Hong and the maservant died circa 1934, Wong Moon Toy came to NY and opened up shop teaching Hung Gar and Mi Ching I and only taught a selected few Fu-Jow Pai.
Wong Moon Toy died in 1960 and his closed door disciples of Fu-Jow Pai decided to open the door to the public in the late 60’s early 70’s, with Wai Hong as Grandmaster and leading the helm today.
Now, Wong Moon Toy learned Hung Gar and Mi Chung I first. Wong Bil Hong also began with Hung Gar. As a result, there are many elements of Hung Gar in Fu-Jow as well as some Mi Chung I. Forms such as Fu-Hawk Kuen, Gung Gi Fu-Fukien and Iron Thread are common staples in the Fu-Jow form arsenal.
Fu-Jow Pai and Hark Fu are one in the same. If you learn Fu-Jow you are learning Black Tiger. Hung Gar is a close cousin to, but a different style to Fu-Jow. Fu-Jow Pai was not created from Hung Gar.
And there are interesting questions regarding the history of Fu-Jow. No one has ever found if the other Master that dueled with Wong Bil Hong and later learned Hark Fu Moon left disciples. It seems apparent that they would have surfaced over the years but have not. Thus, Grand Master Wai-Hong and the other disciples of the Grand Master Wong Moon Toy, are the sole heirs, (along w/their students) to Fu-Jow Pai/Hark Fu Moon.
I hope this is clear.
Tigerlilly, where in Arizona is your Kwoon and with whom did your sifu learn Fu-Jow Pai?
Respect,
loquito
There’s abit of Fu Jow stuff going in the Kung Fu Forum under the Bo Law thread…
Hi…My kwoon is in Tucson, Az My Si Gung is Don Hinzman. He studied with Dave Kovar, from age 6 to age 15. He then went on to study Judo with Gene LaBelle for 5 years. Don was given his Master’s from Gene last July when he found out that Don was made Si Gung. He has had his own kwoon for 7 years now. Wai Hong is who taught Dave Kovar. Wai Hong knows my Sifu if you want to ask about him or Kovar for that matter. I hear Kovar no longer teaches Hung Gar!!! Sold out!! Or I would recommend him.
[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Tigerlilly,
I am from Tucson also. I was curious, when is a good time to come in and watch a class? Also, how much is it to train per month and how long have you been studying? I appreciate any response.
Respectfully,
Daryl
Mon and Wed are Kung Fu night 7-9 p.m. Tues and Thurs. are full contact/grappling night 7-9 p.m. Oh my God please… tell me who you are right away Daryl. Hinzman totally messes with new people’s heads! I’m the Si Goo Mui who begins class on Mon and Wed nights. You can ask for tigerlilly. I’ll defend you. I’ve been at this kwoon for 2yrs. It’s 65.00 a month and that’s for all the classes. You want. I only go to grappling class if I’m training for something specific. It’s a rough class. There’s also a 3 hr. open mat every Sat 3-6p.m. That’s very casual. My personal favorite.
[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 07-20-2000).]
Tigerlilly,
That sounds like a great school. I studied over at Fong Sifu’s for only a few months. Had to drop cuz of school and work 
. That was '96 and I am 20 now, I love Wing Chun but I am looking for someone from the William Cheung lineage of Wing Chun to study from. Hung Gar is also something I am very interested in. If your there next Monday, I would like to stop by to watch a class. Where is it on 22nd? I live right across the street from Sabino Caynon. One last question, have you heard of “Kyriako’s Kung Fu Academy”, he teaches Wing Chun. Is he from Augustine Fong Sifu’s lineage? Thanks for any response.
Respectfully,
Daryl
The kwoon is on 22nd and Wilmot. It’s on the n.w. corner next to Tony’s italian deli about half a block west of the light. Kyriako’s is a Wing Chung kwoon that’s on Wrightstown. They’re nice, but they don’t spar there… forms and lots and lots of stancework. I like something a little tougher myself. I’m unsure of their lineage.
Tigerlilly,
Would your Sifu know of any Fu-Jow Kwoons and/or Fu-Jow practioners in the Southern Cal area.
Thanks,
loquito
I will ask later today for you Ioquito. But I’ve been told this is a rare lineage, esp. on the west coast.
Tigerlilly,
I very much appreciate you asking for me. Any Fu-Jow Pai in the So. Cal area would be of great help to me.
Regards,
loquito
HI in a book called FIVE ANCESTOR FIST KUNG FU THE WAY OF NGO CHO KUN by author ALEXANDER L.CO on page 31 and in the glossary of terms they mention the most popular styles that are practiced in FUKIEN province a few are PEHO (FUKIEN WHITE CRANE) NGO CHO KUN (FIVE ANCESTORS FIST)CHUA KUN (SNAKE STYLE)TE BOK SUT (DOG STYLE)CHUKA (SOUTHERN SHAOLIN STYLES)and then they mention FU JOW PAI (TIGER STYLE) i wonder if this FU JOW PAI that is in FUKIEN province has anything to do with the FU JOW PAI style that is here in America.There is two books called FIVE PATTERN HUNG KUEN by author LEUNG TING in the books they talk about the tiger pattern in it it says tactics of the tiger pattern are come from the HUNG MUN RED SECT (WHITE TIGER STYLE)and the HAK MUN BLACK SECT(BLACK TIGER STYLE)these books have very poetic names for each tecnique maybe there is a connection with FU JOW PAI and HAK FU PAI tiger styles.THE HUNG MUN BLACK SECT or(BLACKTIGER) and the HUNG MUN RED SECT (WHITE TIGER)arent these names for secret societys like the triads and the heavan and earth groups that tried to destroy the Ching Dynasty.In a magazine called KUNG FU WUSHU QIGONG the Millennium Edition they list diferent BLACK TIGER STYLES ZHEJIANG BLACK TIGER FIST,SICHUAN BLACK TIGER FIST,and a northern BLACK TIGER FIST STYLE from the northern province of GANSU.There is also a book called WHITE TIGER VERSUS THE BLACK TIGER OF THE LAO HU CLAN of the SEVEN STAR SYSTEM KUNG FU the Black tiger form in this book looks like FU JOW PAI.And then there is the SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER wich is posted on the other board which i am know confused about its history does someone know the history of the SHANGTUNG BLACK TIGER. FIRE HAWK
Tigerlilly,
Your Si Gung(Don Hinzman), does he know Fu-Jow Pai and if yes, is he a master in the system or a degree ranked disciple and by who? Also, do you know when Dave Kovar was learning Fu-Jow from Wai Hong and what rank was he given and also by who? Does your kwoon have a web site? Just curious.
I’m sorry to say that my sifu said that there is no one in s. ca that he would recommend for Fu Jow Pai. He has been studying Fu Jow Pai and Hung Gar since he was 6. His first black belt and the first 2 degrees are from Kovar. The third is actually from a guy named Shawn McGregor and then 4th 5th and 6th are from Darius Ross. He also is a Judo master that is from Gene Labelle.He also has a black belt in Tae Kwon Do from Tim Rymer.He has one other Japanese style black belt but I can’t remember off the top of my head. I was wrong about who taught Kovar though sifu said he would have to look it up for me. Hinzman’s fighting record is 243 wins 1 loss. Used to fight under the school name of the Black Tiger Fighting Rebellion if that rings a bell w/ any old timers.Yes Eng is in Campbell and Kovar is in Sacramento. These are the only FJP that sifu mentioned in Ca.that are worth recommending.
[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 07-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 07-25-2000).]