Forgetting the "Martial" in "Martial Artist"

[apoweyn]

Goldenmane,

Originally posted by Goldenmane
This is the problem I always run into when trying to be concise… concise statements can be all too easily taken to be blanket statements, and the subtleties behind them are missed.

Yep. That explains (though perhaps doesn’t excuse) why my posts tend to be entirely too long.

I used to fall into the trap you’re delineating here. I think that it is largely one of those “steps along the journey”… It’s a place that people reach, often, in their development of understanding. I’m currently at the point of needing a lot of backup before I take any statement of fact as being anything other than opinion.

I think I’ve dodged a lot of bullets by not really aligning myself with any particular school or style. It’s not really a ‘no way as way’ thing. It just frees me up to flounder around a bit and make up my own mind as I go along.

Or something like that. Anyway, the basic point is that there are stages along the way that pretty much everyone goes through. Some people get stuck at certain stages longer than others, and often this is because they don’t really recognise that there are other stages beyond where they are, or that they just don’t desire to go any further down this path.

The “this is the definition and that’s all there is” stage is not universal, but it’s fairly common.

Yeah. There’s a lot of appeal in completion, in knowing something. In having it settled.

Cheers. I’m gunna be a daddy come Sept., so I’m watching developments with interest.

Then congratulations again!

Me, I’m an uncle by marriage. And that’s about as close as I plan to get. I’ll show up, give horsey rides, buy the cool toys, and so on. The ‘hip’ uncle. (You know. The one that still uses words like ‘hip’ even though he’s only 32.)

I used to think that the dictionary was the be-all, end-all authority on such matters, as I have said, but these days I think not so much. It’s more just a tool that needs to continually adapt.

I find it pretty amusing these days when people complain when dictionaries are adjusted to reflect the current state of the language. If language is set in stone, surely then it becomes stagnant, and this restricts the development of imagination and the communication of such?

Well, and people seem to view it like that’s a new development. Like language hasn’t always been shaped by common use. Like you said, it would stagnate. If language changed according to the dictates of the dictionary, it wouldn’t change at all. What would be the dictionary’s incentive to change? And what would give them the authority? Nah. The dictionary follows our lead, which is precisely how it should be. Without that principle, all my friends wouldn’t be able to give me a hard time about the extra ‘u’ in ‘colour.’ They’d be right there with me.

I was recently involved in quite a lengthy discussion on another board that dealt with the teaching of moral codes in MA schools. Some people asserted that it should be done, some asserted that it shouldn’t. One of the arguments for it being done was that this is the way it was always done - an argument that I don’t really give much weight to for several reasons, not least of which being that in the context we might be considering, you would probably be spending a great deal more of your life studying under your teacher than you have time to do today, and as such would be actively expecting your teacher to teach not just the skills of fighting but their own personal morality as well .. the view of “sifu” meaning “father/teacher”, and as such carrying a different weight than “coach” “instructor”, etc.

Agreed. The relationship was very different. Therefore, the domains of lessons was different. Akin to the military again. I wouldn’t find it odd for a drill sergeant to ‘teach’ his guys about honour, loyalty, self discipline, and the like. Those are directly related to the things he’ll be asking of them. And that is essentially the framework of the original martial arts ‘classes.’

Nowadays, I think I’d liken moral lessons in the martial arts schools more to older brother/younger brother. Experience without authority. I wouldn’t feel odd telling my students my feelings on a moral question, addressing questions they might have from my standpoint. But I also wouldn’t expect them to fall in line with my way of thinking by virtue of the fact that I’m their teacher. You’re right. Martial arts teachers are now generally part of a bigger context in individual education. Very different place in the hierarchy.

Gah… I don’t get the reference. Help?

Edit: Just did a search… I’ve not actually read his stuff, but I will if I get the chance.

It’s actually quite a good book. But it solidified the buzzword ‘warrior.’ And, like I said to KC, I don’t really have a problem with it. Least of all with Forrest Morgan (despite my earlier gag). He says the word, and then goes to great lengths to explain what that means in his conception. And if we all take some time to think about what it actually means, rather than using it as shorthand, then I’m cool with it. (As if that matters to anyone. )

Woohoo!
wanders over to unsuccessfully chat up the barmaid

If it’s an American barmaid, relax. She’ll dig the accent. Believe me.

Fate is a cruel mistress. I lost my accent just in time for high school, where it might really have come in handy.

Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Someday I’ll have a warrior’s snicker. For now, it’s more a titter.

Well, that just elicited a very unwarriorly snort. Now, I’m off to stare menacingly at some peasants.

[Goldenmane]

That explains (though perhaps doesn’t excuse) why my posts tend to be entirely too long

Ditto. I find I have an almost overwhelming urge to address everything in great detail… a habit I’m working on breaking.

It just frees me up to flounder around a bit and make up my own mind as I go along.

chuckle Works for me…

There’s a lot of appeal in completion, in knowing something. In having it settled.

Aye, but it’s a form of laziness, and I’m too lazy as it is.

The dictionary follows our lead, which is precisely how it should be. Without that principle, all my friends wouldn’t be able to give me a hard time about the extra ‘u’ in ‘colour.’ They’d be right there with me.

Heh… it’s all a matter of which dialect you favour…

Nowadays, I think I’d liken moral lessons in the martial arts schools more to older brother/younger brother. Experience without authority. I wouldn’t feel odd telling my students my feelings on a moral question, addressing questions they might have from my standpoint. But I also wouldn’t expect them to fall in line with my way of thinking by virtue of the fact that I’m their teacher.

Hmm.. reminds me of my teacher, in a way. Considered that he was teacher only when we were training. Outside of that, he sought more a friendship. The desire to be liked and respected for who you are, rather than (excllusively) what you can do.

If it’s an American barmaid, relax. She’ll dig the accent. Believe me.

Heh. I’ve been aiming to do some outside-of-oz travelling for ages, but last year it got sidetracked by travelling around the inside of oz. Maybe will again soon.

(On that issue, I’ll hope to set aside as much time as possible to train with some more of the peeps I know/know of from the net. Only got around to one last year. Tooooo long between training.)

Fate is a cruel mistress. I lost my accent just in time for high school, where it might really have come in handy.

Bug.ger…

-geoff

[No_Know]

"Attack, attack, attack – come at your target from every possible direction and press until his defenses overload. Never give him time to recover his balance: never give him time to counter.

• Heroes Die, Matthew Woodring Stover"

“Does this,” the participant asked, “point to underlying fear?”

“A number of individuals – who would, if asked, describe themselves as martial artists – responded in the affirmative. The attitude expressed by the quote was indeed very fearful, they opined. It was not a realistic attitude. It betrayed an ignorance of Japanese Budo, the focus of the discussion site in question. It was, in fact, an attitude exemplified by the infamous fictional Karate instructor portrayed by Martin Kove in The Karate Kid.”

I notice here an answer And an opinion

Perhaps people who are afraid want to know what to do but can only handle small phrases when afraid. So helpful advice is condensed to catchy phrases so that they can be recalled when useful and the person too Scared to think otherwise-ish.

When fearful, one focuses. When afraid you’ll lose your job you try to be more promt, dress better, better hygiene upkeep, try to be more professional one focuses on areas that might have been more laxed.

When afraid you are going to get caught you focus on the options to keep you safest.

When faced with an opponent one’s confidence determines where the focus goes.

“What motivates a martial artist to look at that quote and see mindless killing, bullying, bravado, and mental illness?”

There might tend to be a me or them, mentality which can refer to a willingness to kill (because if you don’t kill them they might come back and kill you) so that you don’t die and I have no other options sort of thing. Some people in the United States of America have an innocence to the Survival level at which the felt Need for this type of thinking might occure.

Some parents shelter their children. They can grow into unaware adults. Hopefully they die Not Needing nor Knowing how terrible things can get or people can on their darker sides be.

“What martial artist in his or her right mind would claim that it is “great” to be attacked, because when an attack occurs one is in “total control” of the situation?”

Along that general line, There are a lot of options. Some think they don’t think well. At least some can be indecisive. When attacked The options in the world get priortized. And one can Know what to do.

"What sort of worldview prompts a martial artist to say that one should “respect” one’s attacker? "

I’ve heard it said that guns should be respected. Regardless of the literal it seems to refer to not underestimating.

“What attitude is behind the opinions of martial artists who look down on their fellow fighters who carry legal handguns or tactical folding knives?”

Bad, for some is other than Bad as Bad can get~.

When I play video game of stratey/fighting I set the options of gameplay to hardest at which for me to win. Strongest, most opponents, with the most resources.~ To my, fewest additional resources, most sensitive to getting damaged, weakest damage done…~. Whatever degrees of success I have under these conditions develops me.

I use a calculator. But my math calculating is embarassing because it’s at elementary school level (a tool that crippled a person in his right mind?). I’ve ridden bikes down hills or level ground. But when returning tired or going back up the hills I had pounds of bicycle to push when winded or fatigued.

Not an assist.

If I rely on a gun or other tool to win when confronted, The perhaps Vital first part of the first (few) second(s) in that confrontation has my mind distracted to thoughts of where’s the weapon I’ve been training to use in just this situation/I need to get something in my hands to use against this person/I wish I had my _____…

And forgetting that I am to keep my mind on handling the potentially lethal opponent with other thoughts comming in as primary thoughts Could be my peril.

“To believe you can, with any degree of certainty, “totally control” a given situation is to display such complete ignorance of the reality of fighting that rational discussion is nearly out of the question.”-Sharp Phil

“Overwhelming an opponent with aggression, when done by a fighter who understands the principles-- of fighting and is skilled and experienced in their application, will always decide a violent altercation. It will also decide a violent altercation in favor of the assailant if the defending “martial” artist fails to grasp the importance of it.”-Sharp Phil

" Anyone who believes an attacker is someone to be “respected” has never met a human predator ready and willing to gouge out another man’s eyeball and pop it. Any martial artist who thinks he or she will have the time and information necessary to assess the intentions of an attacker who has just come from behind to smash a beer bottle over his or her head has no idea just how quickly real attacks occur."

Regardless of the literal it seems to refer to not underestimating. Do you believe that a person willing to gouge out anotherperson’s eye and pop it should be underestimated?

"In the same vein, a martial art or martial artist whose attitude towards weapons is one of contempt, mistrust, fear, or condescension tells you volumes about its, his, or her “martialism.” Weapons are force multipliers

A force multiplier theoretically would multiply the force of my techniques. A bullet fired can be forceful, but not the same technique as my punch (general area damage) it does not multiply the force of my technique-- tools that perform the same function as hammers, levers, and pliers in that they make it easier to accomplish a specific task. As the purpose of a martial art is to deliver force against another human or group of humans, only the most ignorant of martial artists would dismiss or reject tools that make performing this task more efficient and less risky."

And with my attention on the tool and not my fingers/hand, I now jeopardize more greatly my fingers/hand than if I was taking precaution to guard them against harm with no tool in my hand.

“There is no such thing as an immoral tool. There are only immoral tool users.”

"Overwhelming an opponent with aggression, when done by a fighter who understands the principles-- "Introduction: Origin: Oath: Principals: Levels: recommended reading.

Guard the Center
Face the Point of Contact
Economy of Movement
Touch Reflexes: Chi Sao
Watch the Leading Elbow
Use Linear Striking Action
Avoid Fighting Force Against Force
Train to Use Two Arms at the Same Time
Uses Pressure Points to Make Striking Techniques More Effective
Uses the Same Meridian Pressure Points as Treatment of Sports Injuries

Copyright © 2002 Syracuse Wing Chun Academy" of fighting and is skilled and experienced in their application, will always decide a violent altercation. It will also decide a violent altercation in favor of the assailant if the defending “martial” artist fails to grasp the importance of it."

You might agree that if I was not wearing a parachute during free fall, grasping the importance of a parachute in free fall does not greatly aid me.

"Those who understand the purpose of the martial arts and the foundation for all fighting systems do not live their lives in fear. They are, however, realistic about their chances, about the myriad of factors they know they cannot control when faced with attacks by unknown assailants possessing equally unknown motivations and intents. Real fighting is messy, brutal, aggressive, and fast. It is not a dance, it is not a kata, it is not a form, and it is not an exercise.

We forget this at our peril."

To forget, one might have to know. By that you would have to really fight to understand fighting?~ Your instructors would have to really hurt you or you hurt them. You would learn from them hurting you. If you hurt them you learned and need new teachers because they weren’t better then you?

Perhaps they don’t live in fear. But if they didn’t get scared it seems as though they are in the same category as the disillusioned supposed “martial” artists to which you’ve referred.

[Goldenmane]

I’ve heard it said that guns should be respected. Regardless of the literal it seems to refer to not underestimating.

Of all you said on this, this particular line is what jumped out at me. Nicely put. Very nicely put.

-geoff

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rin
My last post was mostly in response to some art forms that teach a strict philosophy of “defensive maneuvers only” After two years of TKD some time ago, in which the teacher taught to kick to get distance and then run away, it occured to me- How do I know that I can outtrun the bad guy? Isn’t it better for me to make sure the bad guy cannot move, through one way or another before I disengage? That is the kind of philosophy that I was debating. And as for don’t put yourself in a garage @ 3:00 AM. I live alone in the city, and I work nights. Parking garages at 3 am are a daily thing. Caution, yes, but this isn’t a “bad things don’t happen to smart people” kind of world.

I like her. Welcome to KFO.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vapour
[B]

I once read a article by someone who grew up in very rough neigbourhood. He stated that tough guys in the hood always run when **** hit the fun not because they are coward but they put their safety and life first and don’t go out their to prove size of their ****. [/b]

I can tell you from first hand experience that the guy was wrong. not ALWAYS.

Large part of the self-defence is not physical. You shouldn’t put yourself in the situation where you’re staring down three thugs in a darkened parking lot in the wee hours of the morning in the first place.

That’s true, but

1. you can’t always help it.
2. things happen in crowded areas in broad daylight too. My post about helping a guy I saw get jumped happened in broad daylight on a busy street. I’ve seen several fights at concerts and shopping malls - crowded places in general. broad daylight, lots of people.

Another idiot is the one who freeze when similar situation arise. Both I’m-****ing-invincible and Oh-please-don’t-hurt-me type are trapped in their fear and thus puting themselves in danger.

that person isn’t an idiot. That person is the one who doesn’t spar hard. The one who doesn’t have the mindset needed to fight. That person could be anyone. you included.

Large part of the benefit of martial arts training is mental rather than physical. Firstly, you know what you can and can’t do physically. Secondly, because you know your capability, you can sensibly avoid situation which put youself in danger and lastly, when **** hit the fun, you won’t freeze and start thinking.

firstly, what you can and can’t do may not matter. you may have no choice but to fight your way out against three guys. you may know that you can’t do it, but you may not have the option of doing otherwise.

secondly, you can avoid most situations, but may not be able to avoid them all.

lastly, if you’re not training right, you WILL freeze. Training MA doesn’t make you not freeze.