I’m curious to hear your opinion on what is most important in a teacher: their own martial skill or their teaching ability? Obviously “both” is the preferred answer, but if you had to choose between someone who had more martial skill but was not a very good teacher, or a less accomplished martial artist with excellent teaching ability - what would you choose?
I would say teaching ability every time. If you take the material and work it hard, you would end up with a good end product and might even skip that whole step most people go through where they try to copy their teachers movement instead of developing their own 
[QUOTE=Golden Arms;752289]I would say teaching ability every time. If you take the material and work it hard, you would end up with a good end product and might even skip that whole step most people go through where they try to copy their teachers movement instead of developing their own :)[/QUOTE]
dito
(stupid 10 character minimum :mad:
Ultimately, it’s not how he/she teaches; it’s how you learn. If you have a good learning attitude, habbit, and method, the teacher is only a guide to help you along. To learn someone’s fighting style is a non realistic aspiration. To realized that you can develop a fighting style with the help of someone who’s been there and done that, that’s the practice of Kung Fu.
Just some thoughts.
Mantis108
I would train under the man with skill. He may not be able to verbally transmit what he knows, but by training with him, you will be able to correct all of that through doing.
with NO instruction at all, you would learn more by sparring with a pro boxer than you would training under a guy who has never in his life set foot in a ring.
Thank you, these are very helpful replies.
Let me further refine the question. Let’s say “Teacher A” is a highly skilled and well-regarded martial artist. He is willing to share his knowledge, and he does so often in class, but the teaching style is very tangental and non-linear. Each class we do a “little of this, a little of that” and as a result I don’t feel like I’m really making progress in any one area.
“Teacher B” is also an accomplished and highly regarded martial artist. His classes are an “open format” with all levels in the same class, and they are often quite crowded. The method of teaching is systematic and detailed, which I appreciate, but because of the size of the classes and the open format I don’t often get as much instruction as I’d like. As a result I feel like the pace of my progress is limited.
“Teacher C” is the least experienced and least accomplished martial artist of the three, and a “generation” removed from the teachers above. However, her teaching is clear, rigorous and systematic and there is abundant personal attention. I feel like I learn a lot and make progress each time I go to her class. On the other hand, I don’t feel particularly inspired by her kung fu, and I question how far I could go with her.
I hope this helps. Thanks again for your replies.
Go to where you are making the most forward progress. When that starts to fade, then maybe you will be able to absorb more from the other’s due to your own foundation.
The system of teaching is very important, especially in a discapline where self discovery through experiance is important.
[QUOTE=switters;752317]Thank you, these are very helpful replies.
Let me further refine the question. Let’s say “Teacher A” is a highly skilled and well-regarded martial artist. He is willing to share his knowledge, and he does so often in class, but the teaching style is very tangental and non-linear. Each class we do a “little of this, a little of that” and as a result I don’t feel like I’m really making progress in any one area.[/quote]
I would say Teacher A is old style teacher and properly a more mature person. tangental and non-linear as a teaching style is not a bad thing provided that you have a good learning attitude and know where you wanted to be. With a teacher like that you’ll have to “propose” questions (I assume he has lots of real experience behind him). This is to ask question not in verbal form but “ask” question in physical or mind (advance) form. Show that you want to know the application or whatever by “trying” to work out a move that you want to know with a partner (at the right opportunity of course). If will have to be aggressive in pressing for knowledge in this case IMHO. Remember be respectful and absorb things like a spunge.
“Teacher B” is also an accomplished and highly regarded martial artist. His classes are an “open format” with all levels in the same class, and they are often quite crowded. The method of teaching is systematic and detailed, which I appreciate, but because of the size of the classes and the open format I don’t often get as much instruction as I’d like. As a result I feel like the pace of my progress is limited.
This would be your safest bet as a teacher. The size of the class is not an obstacle really because it provides you ample of partners of all sizes and strength to practice things on. If you are more of a “lone wolf” type of person, this is not ideal of course. But I would say systematic and detail is what I would look for in a teacher especially for novice and intermediate level MA. For advanced, I would say teacher A would be better (providing that he’s what he claims).
“Teacher C” is the least experienced and least accomplished martial artist of the three, and a “generation” removed from the teachers above. However, her teaching is clear, rigorous and systematic and there is abundant personal attention. I feel like I learn a lot and make progress each time I go to her class. On the other hand, I don’t feel particularly inspired by her kung fu, and I question how far I could go with her.
“She” is good for you in the sense that she is more or less “green” therefore more enthusastic and energetic (most likely having grand vision in MA at this point). BTW There is a good chance that she devotes a lot of energy and heart into devicing a program. Purtiy is a good virtue and is hard to find these days. She might have good technical information to offer but I am afraid in the long run, you would need to dwell into the depth of MA which is person growth. My impression is she might not be ready for that kind of intimate knowledge from what you describe. So…
Martial arts isn’t just about techniques (fighting application), it is about the fight itself. What are you fighting for? Why do you have to fight? Where do you fight? Who are you fighting really? When should you fight or not to fight? We all struggle in life. In learning martial arts, we learn not only the mystery or reason/reasoning of fighting but we learn also every about ourselves whether we have the fight in us or not. How do you handle life? You fight, flight or freeze? You can run but you can’t hide. That’s what martial arts is about IMHO.
Mantis108
Knowledge, teaching ability, personality and at least be able to demonstrate techniqe effectively. If you are gonna teach me how to get more power in my jump spinning reverse crescent, you should be able to demonstrate it. If you are asking me go low in my stances, you should be able to demonstrate it and explain its purpose. If you are showing me a sparring technique, you should be able to back up you claims with a demo not just telling me “it will work”. Those are my requirements.
The instructor need not be a forms or sparring champion, or have a ton of trophies and distiguished titles. Those that brag are hiding some short comings as far as I concerned.
Let me add that most people have different ways of learning. What I would consider a good teacher may not be to your liking.
Both would be great.
Good Morning,
From my experiences, teaching ability (of your teacher) is key in learning anything.
Be it math,eng,kung fu,wiping yourself, etc…
Your sifu could be the greatest martial artist alive but if he can’t teach then perhaps you should look elsewhere. Otherwise (as what was already stated) you won’t be learning anything. You’d just be copying your teacher’s movements. His/ Her kung fu and not finding your (personal) kung fu. If that makes any sense.
My sifu (for example) is a great teacher. He could definately kick my @$$, but is he the greatest martial artist alive? I would have to say no.
The good thing is the fact that you are looking for a great instructor. In this case,as is in mine, a sifu’s ability to teach is above all else. Don’t get me wrong, your sifu should still be able to do the style well enough to inspire you to try harder(at least my sifu does that to me) but don’t use one’s ability as the only criteria in searching for a sifu.
I 've heard about instances where a sifu was an excellent martial artist but all his students sucked. They didn’t even know the most basic applications of their style(i’m talking about the third year students). This was due to the fact that the sifu was more about training himself as opposed to training his students. At the end of the day it was as if they were just training and hanging out with a great martial artist as opposed to learning from one.
A good learning attitude (habit, method, etc..)does aid the situation but that alone won’t help you learn a great deal from a bad teacher. You would still be copying their movements instead of actually learning the style.
I hope this helps.
Have a good one,
WF
If your goal is to learn how to fight, go with the one who has verifiable evidence of having fought (not someone who you have “heard” has fought, or who is a good “martial artist”) successfully. Someone who has never fought before will never be able to teach you how to fight.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;752316]I would train under the man with skill. He may not be able to verbally transmit what he knows, but by training with him, you will be able to correct all of that through doing.
with NO instruction at all, you would learn more by sparring with a pro boxer than you would training under a guy who has never in his life set foot in a ring.[/QUOTE]
just want to add that the stable of guys you train with will often be more important than the teacher when it comes to skill. it’s not just you and the teacher to take into consideration.
Say you have a bad coach, but every one of his fighters are champions- better to train at that gym.
Best case scenario, your coach is a good coach and the guys at your gym are world-beaters. That’s where you’ll go far.
its like they say those who can, do
and those who can’t, teach
(and those who can’t teach, teach phys ed)
but yeah a good practitioner who can’t teach vs a competent practitioner with good teaching i would take the good teacher.
Well, assuming by better teacher you mean someone who’s able to better explain, extrapolate, and expand upon the basics, then I’d go with the better teacher.
But that doesn’t mean you stay with the better teacher.
At some point, when you’ve got a firm foothold in what you’re doing*, and you’re going to be able to understand what the better fighter is telling you, you need to switch over.
This is of course, assuming you’ve never trained with someone before.
*Your mileage may vary.
many times you will find elderly individuals who simply cannot perform all of the techniques they used to be able to.
this is where expert teaching comes in. no one stays young for ever.
the knowledge is the most important, being able to transmit the knowledge second, being able to perform third, IMO.
thats what star pupils are for, they can demonstrate anything you can explain in depth.
[QUOTE=ittokaos;752329]Good Morning,
I 've heard about instances where a sifu was an excellent martial artist but all his students sucked. They didn’t even know the most basic applications of their style(i’m talking about the third year students). This was due to the fact that the sifu was more about training himself as opposed to training his students. At the end of the day it was as if they were just training and hanging out with a great martial artist as opposed to learning from one.
WF[/QUOTE]
A very good point, and in fact I was mentioning this to my friend the other day. I have trained in various MA off and on for fifteen years, so I’m not a novice. I’m able to recognize knowledge and skill when I see it. In Teacher A’s class, many of his students (that have apparently been studying with him for some time) have not grasped even the fundamentals of the forms they practice.
During my first class I asked a million questions, because the form was new to me and I wanted clarification on subtle body/energy mechanics. The teacher answered the questions adequately, but I really had to keep asking. Apparently it’s not his style to just offer the information systematically as he teaches. Anyhow, after class, one of his other students came up to me and said he had learned more in that single class than in all of the previous ones combined. He thanked me for asking all of the questions I asked because it obviously helped him to progress. (I have no idea why he hadn’t asked them himself - probably because he was intimidated or not experienced enough to know which questions to ask).
[QUOTE=ittokaos;752329]Good Morning,
From my experiences, teaching ability (of your teacher) is key in learning anything.
Be it math,eng,kung fu,wiping yourself, etc…
Your sifu could be the greatest martial artist alive but if he can’t teach then perhaps you should look elsewhere. Otherwise (as what was already stated) you won’t be learning anything. You’d just be copying your teacher’s movements. His/ Her kung fu and not finding your (personal) kung fu. If that makes any sense.
My sifu (for example) is a great teacher. He could definately kick my @$$, but is he the greatest martial artist alive? I would have to say no.
The good thing is the fact that you are looking for a great instructor. In this case,as is in mine, a sifu’s ability to teach is above all else. Don’t get me wrong, your sifu should still be able to do the style well enough to inspire you to try harder(at least my sifu does that to me) but don’t use one’s ability as the only criteria in searching for a sifu.
I 've heard about instances where a sifu was an excellent martial artist but all his students sucked. They didn’t even know the most basic applications of their style(i’m talking about the third year students). This was due to the fact that the sifu was more about training himself as opposed to training his students. At the end of the day it was as if they were just training and hanging out with a great martial artist as opposed to learning from one.
A good learning attitude (habit, method, etc..)does aid the situation but that alone won’t help you learn a great deal from a bad teacher. You would still be copying their movements instead of actually learning the style.
I hope this helps.
Have a good one,
WF[/QUOTE]
that example you gave isn’t really the same thing I am talking about. If I just train myself, ignore my students and beat on them when I need to spar, sure, they will always suck. But If am am actually trying to teach them, even if I am a bad teacher, I will produce good students who know about fighting. I bet ross, parella, jurak and anyone else who began training under a chinese teacher who didn’t speak much english would attest to that, because the situation was similar. Even if he was a great teacher, at first they couldn’t communicate with him.