FALUN GONG/Falun Dafa

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Qigong and Meditation
21

Hi…again.

origenx, you can draw your own conclusions about Li Hongxi and his teachings at his website.
The link is supplied in another post.

Falun Gong/dafa is a “cult of personality” and not a religious cult. They are different.
you speak of outrageous stories of “miracles and faith healings” in reference to the christian faith. The christian faith has many aspects.
Some even recognize Jesus as just a man, but a man with a message of peace.
The miracles can all be explained and have been by various sources.
for instance “water into wine”- it is known that the same amphorae (bottles) were used over and over again sometimes over a period of years.
This led to a residue buildup of crystallized wine in the amphorae. Jesus directs someone to fill it with water and swish it around.
Wine is produced much in the same way as instant coffee.
The zealots proclaim this a miracle. Jesus never claimed a miracle had occured.

The fishes and loaves story has an equally intersting twist.
Everybody gathers (about 5000). 5000 people gathering with no food at all? didn’t happen.
the demonstartion by Jesus and his followers was a lesson in giving.
IE: Give away everything you have and it will be returned in two fold.
If I hand over all my fish to the next guy, somebody down the line is gonna give me theirs and so on until all the food that was present at the sermon on the mount was distributed and there was some leftover in the end. The only miracle there was that people gave up their own possessions and learned that they really gave up nothing but instead made gains in more areas than food.

Lazarus was a result of knowledge. He may not have even been dead at all. Jesus was likely educated in some medicinal practices and either brought lazarus out of a coma, or any number of other techniques associated with medicinal practices at the time (which were no less or no more primitive than herbalism and manipulative therapy or Chi manipulation or acupressure.puncture of today).

Li Hongxi in his writings sets himself apart from the rest of humanity and all his contemporaries. He claims that virtually all of the masters of Chi Kung don’t really understand Chi Kung and that only if you follow his way will you see what “real” chi kung and it’s benefits are.

Li Hongxi is the leader of a cult of personality that does little more than borrow from chi kung arts that have existed for many years before he was a gleem in his dads eye.

Li hongxi has told people to not go for treatment of acute symptoms and those people have died because of their faith in Li.

Li hongxi capatalizes on those who are too weak to make their own destiny manifest.
He is clever and recognizes most readily human weakness.

Yes the PRC is likely going overboard in their protestations about Li and his group, and they do have a clear track record of obfuscation and deception and accordingly are not trusted by the western public.

But what of western propaganda? What of the still prominent “communist scare” in the western world.

Li hongxi is no different than the rest of us, he is a human who has all the problems and joys of being human.
to his followers he is a demi urge and sage of sorts.

Li is not the only one who practices these deceptions.

The Chinese government does not crack down anymore on people doing tajiquan in the park or Chi Kung for that matter. It is the communist party line to not allow groups that are considered dissident to flourish.

Li hongxi actively recruits government people in all levels where possible.
He is seeking internal political power and indeed he has a political agenda.

I do not agree with the tenets and precepts of communism at all in any way. it is a pile of marxist utopian garbage in my not so humble opinion.

Nor do I agree with anything about falun gong practices with the singular exception that Chi Kung practice is good for you and it is good for anybody of any age.

Be careful, that’s all.

peace

Kung Lek

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 08-19-01 at 11:58 AM.]

22

Have you heard this one.

Li also states that Monks or Nuns that cultivate in a specific way. When dead and creamated will leave a mass of material from a different dimension. It cannot be identifed by modern science. Sounds delusional to me.

23

Actually, I have read in several books of high level masters of chiqong/taoism, when cremated, leaving a number of diamond-like residues. I think Magus of Java was one of these books. Bones of the Master may have been another.

24

Yes, the claims of interdimensional materials and residues that are unidentifiable by science…
I have “heard” these claims too.
I don’t think anyone actually ever had “science” take a look at these claims and I think that no-one ever will. It will immediately de-mystify everything.

It is these claims that drift from the truth of Chi Kung practice that tick me off.

Chi kung is a natural and very real thing that affects and effects each practitioner in a positive way.
It does not need to be mystified, it does not need to be wrapped in mystery.Accept it or don’t but don’t try and make a silk purse from a sows ear.

many do this with all sorts of arts.
Kung Fu is overmystified as are many martial arts.
It’s just knowledge to be gained and applied, it is not some big-quasi religious secret.

corruption of intent, spirit and thought is what leads to these behaviours in so called “masters”.

I have always been of the opinion that the more trappings and outward expressions you surround yourself with, the less true skill you have.
This I have found to be a general truism.

peace

Kung Lek

25

qiman - I don’t know about “other-dimensional,” but it is stnadard Buddhist belief that enlightened masters, when cremated, will leave “suli” - small whitish pebbles. Like, supposedly, when Sakyamuni was cremated, he left 84,000 suli and India gave china 19 of them. Of those 19, supposedly the only real one located today is in Famen Temple in Xian. I saw it, as well as a finger bone also purported to be from Buddha. Anyways, the “suli” looks like a tiny whitish pebble about the size of half a grain of rice.

Kung Lek - Intersting spin on Jesus’ “miracles.” I never heard those before - where’d you read that?

Ok points about Li Hongzhi, but I still haven’t heard anything really convincing that puts a nail in his coffin. I wanna hear that he’s embezzling all this money to buy a fleet of Benz’s, or that he lied about his past, or specific points in his teaching that are wrong. I still haven’t heard anything solid as such… ?

26

Ok I recant

Maybe delusions are to strong of a word, how about myth. I have never heard these stories before. Most of the books I have are on martial Qigong and only touch on the mystical. I like the fact that many of us have disagreed and no one has started name calling. Must be all that internal work! I may not can fly but it sure makes me calmer.

Origenx, I have not heard of the suli legend. Is it written about in the Dhammapada? If so were?
I am not challenging you, just want to read about it. :slight_smile:

27

Coffin nails…not bloody likely.

The BEST con men apply just enough truth and appear honest enough to be worthy of the benefit of the doubt.

From an old Thief of Bagdad movie : “Trust in Allah,…but tie up your camel”

From P.T.Barnum paraphrased, When you are offered something for nothing, you usually get nothing for something…

28

falun gong is good
plain and simple

29

Qiman - I didn’t read about “suli’s.” I don’t even know if they’re in Buddhist texts. I just learned about them when touring various temples in China. If you talk to someone who’s travelled somewhat in China or lived there, they may have heard about it. Ask around…and let me know what you hear?

30

pearls of enlightenment

My teacher said that when his Buddhist teacher (a monk) died and was cremated, he left pearl like substances that came from his spine. These indicated that the internal fire from many years of meditation had hardened certain areas along the spine and were indicative of his teachers level of spiritual attainment.

31

From Zhuan Falun (main Falun Gong book)

“By the time one reaches the state of Unlocking Gong (kaigong) and is enlightened, this dan will be a bomb that explodes and opens up all supernormal abilities, all locks in the body, and hundreds of energy passes. “Bang,” everything will be shaken open. This is what the dan is used for. After a monk is cremated at death, sarira remain. Some people claim that those are bones and teeth. How come everyday people do not have sarira? Those are just the exploded dan, and their energy has been released. They contain in themselves a lot of substances from other dimensions. After all, they are also something of material existence, but of little use. People now take them to be something very precious. They contain energy, and are lustrous, as well as very hard. That is what they are.”

32

ddh, magicfist - yeah, pearly “pebbles” being left after cremation of enlightened masters is a fairly standard Buddhist phenomenom that is not a new Falun Gong thing.

33

Sorry if I gave the impression that it was strictly a falun gong thing. It was just a description of a phenomenon that has happened to people in the past. By the way, what does ddh mean?

34

Off topic

“Orginex, I agree with you about the outright suppression of thoughts and ideas in China. I am very much a supporter of free speech and all the liberties we enjoy in the good ole US of A.”

To start off with, I don’t want anyone to get the idea that I’m supporting the Chinese government (or any government for that matter). You do have to remember, however, that much of the information you’re getting from the corporate media in the good ole US of A is propaganda, just as it is here in Australia, or anywhere else you care to mention. It strikes me as funny that so many of the same people who knock others for not being more critical of Chinese reports are so completely uncritical of their own media. If you’ve ever spoken to journalists who work for large media corporations, you’ll know that they’re the first to admit to “editorial” pressure to keep in synch with what amounts to the party line.

My personal opinion is that Western governments spend most of their time killing citizens of other countries, while dictatorships tend to work on a domestic basis as well. Then again, that’s my personal opinion. I think you have to take absolutely everything you hear or read with a grain of salt. Look at where it’s coming from, look at why they want you to believe it…Criticism begins at home. For any of you who are interested, Noam Chomsky has written a number of excellent books about how the government and media in the US and other Western countries lie to their citizens. The good thing is, he usually provides independently verifiable evidence, too. :wink:

Anyway…

35

anarcho - but that’s sorta my point. Both gov’s are sorta using FG as a political tool - it’s not so much about FG itself. The Chinese gov could really care less what FG is about - they just see it as a threat for instability and insurrection. Just lots of frightened weak old men. The Chinese Communist gov wants to make an example out of FG to suppress other spiritual movements (see Tibet). I think the US is thus fairly concerned about the Chinese persecution aginst FG, but of course it also conveniently fits into their own anti-Communist agenda as well. Which I would have to agree with b/c Communism is a proven failure. Any system built upon human’s ideal nature is bound to fail. You have to build it assuming the “worst” in human nature (selfishness, greed, etc.), but then channel those “negative” tendencies in a positive manner. (I.e. - get REAL folks!)

Bottom line is, everyone should just stick to the facts and evaluate FG on its own merits, instead of kicking it around like a political football. All I hear is lots of hearsay and propaganda still. But I guess that’s the point - to cloud the issue by overloading people with misinformation and disinformation until they just get hopelessly confused.

[This message was edited by origenx on 03-06-01 at 10:50 AM.]

36

First off, good post on the idea to be doubtful of all media. The first thing I always ask is why is this person telling me this and where are they coming from…regardless of if the story is from China or from the west.

As for why China chose to crack down on Falun Gong…really simple, the organization began to attract thousands of followers, then it began to target low level party members and local officials for enticing into the Falun Gong group.

The thousands of followers is scary enough for the PRC government to take notice. Especially since it got its start in the recent history since Tienanmen Square…but now add the idea of targetting people for inclusion or conversion into the group…and you have a major problem in the eyes of a controlling regime like that of the PRC…

If I am the government, abuse of power is my right…if you do it, you are being insurgent …but it is no different in other countries…

However, the real story is in the Falun Gong book…I actually bought it and have read parts of it just so I would know what the guy was saying. He is certifiable…and I mean a space cadet.

37

Yep.

Cheers, OrigenX, I see your point. Just one aside, though, I don’t think Marxism is based on considering humans to be naturally good, more on considering them to be changeable depending on their environment. And I definitely agree with you, state run communism couldn’t work…You can’t force people to do anything without causing more problems than you’re solving. I also don’t think that state run democracy works, but there you go. :slight_smile:

Anyway, this is a thread for another board, so I’ll shut up now.
:slight_smile:

38

I brought up this old string to complement the new string on falun gong.

39

hmm

it seems to me that some people would classify this as mystical qigong. however, i don’t believe that it ever claimed to be qigong. instead, it is a way of cultivation that includes exercises similar to those of qigong, but with a different purpose. when you have a falun, instead of a dan cluster, then the principles of what you are doing are totally different.

for instance, once you have a falun, practicing something that uses a dan could not work well. this is because the way they absorb and issue energy is different, and because a falun transforms the energy.

as i was saying, before i let myself get off the topic, is that it is a way to cultivation, similar to buddhism or daoism. a big difference, however, is that since people can cultivate quickly, and because the enlightenment is gradual, their third eye and supernormal powers develop gradually through practice. you can imagine how a man like li hongzhi, with his third eye and supernormal powers being how they are, could have gained so much knowledge. such an enlightened, or even somewhat enlightened person would seem odd or bizarre in a world like our’s. his observations and knowledge wouldn’t simply conform itself to what we know now. would the existance of aliens confuse and dumbfound an enlightened person? of course not. he would be able to see exactly what is happening. if he tries to tell the rest of us, this, however, will we believe him? we’ll say “how do you know that?” when it should be quite clear to us how he does.

if you really read his books without attaching yourselves to anything else, it does make sense, what he says. the multi-dimensional aspects are clear and sensible, as are the rest of his teachings.

the big thing, though, is that we have to stop looking at it as mystical qigong. qi is a very small part of the practice, and is there only to open parts of the body, and to be transformed into gong (shen) by the falun.

p.s. if li hongzhi wanted to go against the chinese government with millions of practitioners in china, he wouldn’t be able to. the reason is because they are non-violent. in fact, the main principles of the system are truthfulness, benevolence, and forbearance.

40

From what I have heard.. Falun Gong is a group that is using chi kung for what it was never meant for–politics. Very often you see them ‘meditating’ in public, drawing attention to themselves and trying to make a statement, which I think contrasts with the idea of chi kung or meditation.

If a person wants to do chi kung, why draw attention to it? What does it matter? Why meditate downtown with all your friends and a big bright ribbon around your shoulder? (i saw this in the paper the other day)

I personally think that a falun gong member will only receive minimal health benefits from the postures they do, but will find a huge difference in attitude as well as better results when studying under a true chi kung master.

I would rather learn closer to the source ..