Its good to have a laugh at everyone and not take life too seriously, but Vapour you are clearly an arm chair critic, I can understand your view on your appraisal of what Erle is doing, but ultimately the only thing that counts in internal MA is skill and power, if you have never crossed hands with Erle, then your comments have no basis, I actually agree with some of your observations but it is all academic unless you get off your ar.se and cross hands then you will be able to see if his taiji is any good… fair comment don’t you think?
Originally posted by Vapour
O.K. let me try to explain why one shouldn’t even have appearence of jumping.
Would that also include the jumping movements in taiji forms?
LOFL!
“You really don’t need your “root” if your opponent is knocked out.
I could show you this, if it makes you happier. Are you near Kenmore Square?”
I’ve been KO’d before, no big deal. Not sure if your threatening me? I moved to Pembroke 2 years ago but I work in town.
So you’re a Yang stylist, Earle attacks, if you’re sensitive enough when you recieve the attack and feel him break his root and structure what are you going to do with it? That’s my point.
Earle is probably a nice guy and has made a good living.
If you go to Silky Way in Chinatown and you look you’ll see that he’s gone from paper Xeroxed pamphlets on Dim Mak, to
a gorgeous Hardcover book on Bagua.
He could avoid alot of this contreversy by assimilating all his stuff and creating a form and system of his own authorship. He has the name for it.
Lastly, do a search on this board beating up on Earl is a waste
of bandwidth and has been done a million times and no one
can dispute the validity of that statement.
Stay Happy, happy.
Im no physicist and im sure someone else could do a much better job of explaining what im about to attempt but ill have a go anyway.
When you push on an object the object effectively pushes back, if you are well grounded then the opposing force is dispersed though your body and back into the ground.
By jumping i would think that this force would actualy have an effect of throwing you back.
I would be willing to bet that if this strike was attempted on a heavy bag by a light practioner it would have the effect of actualy sending the striker back with a nasty jolt.
Im not saying it would have no force but that the aftershock would not be well controlled.
Still one thing i actualy like about Erle is his commitment to promoting Taijiquan as a combat system.
I’m not sure about the physics of it. I have seen video stuff of Elre on the bag, though I can’t remember if he was “off gournd” or not.
In systema we do one drill with the pads that involves a kind of “jumping” hit and you can get quite a lot of power out of it. It doens’t use a waist shake though, more the body weight combined with a heavy slap.
I agree with Bai He, EM would have been better promoting his onw system rather than trying to compete with the other schools for lineage, history, etc. Face it , no-one is going to compete with the Chens as far as that goes, regardless of what anyone is teaching. The Yangs are a little different as the lineage is more fragmented, but the principle remains. Trying to crowbar a way into the line, whether the history is true or not, was bound to lead to problems.
As for the “classical” fa jing I’ve seen, I’ve yet to be convinced of its practicality.
The cardinal sin of Tai Chi is double-weightedness. Hence what EM is showing is not Tai Chi as defined by the classics.
Originally posted by bob10
[B]
Would that also include the jumping movements in taiji forms? [/B]
No. Because when you jump, your purpose is to jump. When you punch, you use strenght of earth. You are being sacarstic right?
I think that if one cannot criticize EM (or any teacher) without crossing hands then it seems one should not defend EM (or any teacher) unless they have crossed hands. But thats not the whole story.
The more important question is how do you train for effective fajing expression and usage. I know that this does not simply happen from playing a form or pushing hands and this is true for all of the major taji systems. The real proof is to put out how you trained to reach the level.
There are specific auxilliary exercises and breath work (qi gong/nei gong if you wish) that must also be trained. That is where I think judgements can be made without crossing hands. If they never show this (anyone, not just EM) then I have doubts about what they are doing.
The EM argument has been going on for years and years and will never be resolved. I mean, who is going to admit after being with any teacher (or an EM student) for any length of time that, “oh they are a fraud and all the years and money I put in were wrong and a waste!” People have a vested interest in defending their teacher and their material and I can really understand that.
What if you could show that EM was a complete fraud. How would it improve your martial arts training or what you practice?
Ultimately “let the buyer beware!” Maybe thats part of the long run learning experience because censorship doesn’t work.
I think honest training articles, some reference to the source of the training, and a more accurate martial arts history will help buyers make better choices. None of these is perfect answer or solution but we live in an imperfect world.
But, hey, this is only one opinion among many and we all know the analogy of opinions and, well, you know.
Well not really, because the forms contain jumping kicks. I’m presuming they are fa-jing kicks, or do they use another mechanism?
Can’t remember off-hand if there are jumping strikes too - anyone else?
I think you make a good point RAF - without personal experience who can give a balanced judgement? And even then there are other factors to take into account.
I’m not one to blow EM’s trumpet by any means, what bothers me with these discussions are the “you’ve never seen REAL fa-jing” brigade.
Go and see as many people as you can and then make up your mind. I don’t think anyone has the monopoly on “real” taiji and even the hallowed Classics are open to interpretation.
Then again, at the end of the day I don’t study it any more so what would I know
Mike Tyson can throw a much more powerful punch than EM. Does that make him a good Tai Chi Master?
RAF made good point. I should stop flaming so I deleted my comment. My comment was something to do with Internet debate all about mouth Gong Fu and I’ve seem much better faing. 
Actually I don’t thinkI meant it the way you took it.
Crossing hands is not the only criteria for evaluating someone’s taiji knowledge or power.
As I thought it over, censorship or fear of stating your opinion may be worse than a flame (I don’t recall what you posted).
My primary concern with many teachers is they often do not reveal their hand and may even disguise it to throw people off the track. That is why I am hesitant to conclude too much without seeing the full package.
I honestly have seen a few really skilled martial artists do a poor public demonstration only to reveal what they know and can do behind closed doors. I have heard of a couple of really top notch taji masters doing this and it doesn’t surpise me.
My understanding of fajing is quite different than what EM reveals on and in his demonstration. However, I am not going to pull the trigger so fast because maybe he has material he may not show the public on how to train for effective fajing. There are many trails to get to the top of a given mountain.
Recently, for the first time, I saw he has spear training and wonder how he incorporates this into his taiji training. He may know more than meets the eye or he may not.
For example, I can look at what I know regarding my spear training, take a look at what Chen Zhenglei writes in this issue of Tai Chi Magazine (Using the Pole to Integrate the Body), look at what Wang Pei Sheng’s student wrote in the Internal Arts Magazine about spear training, and look at Gerald Sharps Tai Chi Magazine piece on Cultivating Jin with Tai Chi Spear and then get a pretty good idea of where EM or someone who claims they know how to develop fajing expression and/or power in their training stands. So crossing hands isn’t the only way to understand a person’s taiji or fajing or whatever.
For me, a lot is revealed in the basic training that a teacher advocates. But I do ask myself why I have been so concerned over what others claim to have and my answer is always a question, “How does their claim or fame affect your (meaning mine) martial arts?”
Its when you find a basis to remove all self-doubt of your art/teacher that you can find room to let others simply be.
They can claim anything they want up until the point I decide to learn from them. Then I will question, in detail and depth, what they have, where it came from, and how useful it is.
Please don’t stop flaming or offering your opinion/analysis based on anything I have said. Seriously, who is anyone to decide how the forum discourse should be regulated.
Level headed and fair post RAF, as usual.
I think when Earl posts things like the information
on his Bagwa videos, he really opens himself
up to criticism:
http://www.taijiworld.com/Videos/bagwa.htm
I agree with about 10% of anything said on that page.
O.K. in that case here is my response.
Please criticise my content of explanation rather than context of internet debate. If you perticipate in this forum everyone is practicing Mouth GongFu from one’s chair. Only way to reveal whether someone is talking out from his/her arse is when someone only rant about context rather content.
If you found my explanation too long, here is very short version.
“Staying rooted on the ground is the main source of power”
And here is a quote from classic.
“The root is in the feet;
Discharging is done by the legs,
The controlling power is in the waist,
And the appearance is in the hand and fingers.”
So, please explain to me why jumping is acceptable in faijng punch despite its obvious loss of root. I personally have never seen taijiquan form which include jumping punch.
Originally posted by patriot
Mike Tyson can throw a much more powerful punch than EM. Does that make him a good Tai Chi Master?
No, it makes him a good boxer. And if he can punch harder than a good tai chi master does that mean we should study boxing instead?
Im very, very wary of any sifu who claims to be able to teach more than one martial art. I personaly would never visit such a teacher.
My own belief is that it is possible to be competent and even highly skilled in two, maybe even three martial arts but that this does not mean you are able to teach them. For me a teacher should be constantly appraising and refining the art he is teaching to ensure that he understands it better each day. How can you do this if you are practising, teaching or even learning another art?
My sifu was a fourth dan in korean karate before even starting Tai-Chi. He still practises his karate but would not dream of teaching it.
I think Mr Montague has too many techniques, too many ‘principles’ and FAR too many buzz-words rattling around inside his head.
Of course, I couldnt really say unless I got to push with him 
Each new form or training drill more deadly than the last…
Greetings..
FaJing? No, it’s a video clip of Earle.. FaJing is an explosive expression of energy through a properly aligned and conditioned (trained) body.. My own understanding and training suggests that we compromise our frame and power base when we break connectivity with the ground.. while treading water where your feet can’t reach the bottom, try to walk.. Exactly, you go no where.. without a connection to the ground simple physics tells us that the equal and opposite reaction theory will negate much of the power.. FaJing is transferring “earth energy” through our bodies to a target.. Leaving the ground while punching is most often associated with lack of control.. One of my students suggested trying to hit the heavy while wearing skates, i tried it with my son’s skateboard… enlightening! Many of the traditional aerial techniques were developed to take a person off a horse, usually kicks.
Is Earle expressing FaJing? who cares? The real question for me is what am “i” doing? I know what it’s like to feel someone express FaJing.. i have had limited success myself and for me consistency is the most difficult issue.. I feel better and it’s more beneficial to criticize myself rather than others..
Be well…