Exorcism

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Qigong and Meditation
21

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1292605]

TRUE exorcisms are far and few between and there are NO DOUBTS that something supernatural is going on.
The RCC has a VERY strict policy and what is a real possession and believe you me, IF the “list” is all “checked off” then it IS a demonic posession.

The only issue would be that very LITTLE of what qualifies as a sign of possession has to do with the mental state of the person.

Things like speaking in a dead language by a child AND exhibiting knowledge the child can NOT have AND strength beyond the norm for human beings AND…well, the point is that MULTIPLE lines of evidence are required not just one or two.[/QUOTE]

Id like to ask two questions about that.

Are those things filmed or recorded and made available for critical scrutiny? Or have they just been reported.

Also, even if those things do occur, and appear to be “supernatural” in some sense of the word, why does that mean the explanation has to be demonic possession? Couldn’t there be other supernatural explanations? For example speaking a dead language could be (for those who believe in the supernatural) an expression of reincarnation. Other inexplicable phenomena might be expressions of telepathy, or simply supernatural physical strength. Can one automatically equate “something supernatural” with “demonic possession”?

22

[QUOTE=rett2;1292607]I’d like to ask two questions about that.

Are those things filmed or recorded and made available for critical scrutiny? Or have they just been reported.

Also, even if those things do occur, and appear to be “supernatural” in some sense of the word, why does that mean the explanation has to be demonic possession? Couldn’t there be other supernatural explanations? For example speaking a dead language could be (for those who believe in the supernatural) an expression of reincarnation. Other inexplicable phenomena might be expressions of telepathy, or simply supernatural physical strength. Can one automatically equate “something supernatural” with “demonic possession”?[/QUOTE]

Yes, there are archives of videos and such and no, not just anyone can see them and yes, investigative journalist have seen them and Yes, the majority were concluded to NOT be possessions.
Again, no one is going to scream out “demon possession” with 1 or 2 lines of evidence.
My point is that it takes A LOT for something to be viewed by the RCC as an actual possession and when all the evidence is there, one is hard pressed to find a different conclusion.

23

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1292614]Yes, there are archives of videos and such and no, not just anyone can see them and yes, investigative journalist have seen them and Yes, the majority were concluded to NOT be possessions.
Again, no one is going to scream out “demon possession” with 1 or 2 lines of evidence.
My point is that it takes A LOT for something to be viewed by the RCC as an actual possession and when all the evidence is there, one is hard pressed to find a different conclusion.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Then I wonder, are there videos of the cases that were determined by the RCC to be actual cases of demonic possession? Are they available for independent scrutiny? Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc? (not to mention possible natural explanations) Otherwise it seems rather hand-wavy to me.

24

[QUOTE=rett2;1292617]Thanks. Then I wonder, are there videos of the cases that were determined by the RCC to be actual cases of demonic possession? Are they available for independent scrutiny? Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc? (not to mention possible natural explanations) Otherwise it seems rather hand-wavy to me.[/QUOTE]

I had the pleasure of speaking with an journalist that saw the evidence lockers when I was getting my Masters in Theology a couple of years ago.
They are not available to the public and to get permission is a tad complicated and a long process BUT it can be done.
You have to realize that the RCC doesn’t care who believes or not and they are not in the business of proving the supernatural.
The RCC has some very, very qualified scientists ( it has always had a history of that as you probably know) and they try to DISPROVE possession not prove it.
The whole point of an investigation is to prove that it is NOT demonic possession.
Of course the Church believes that it can and has happened BUT they don’t go in trying to prove that it is, quite the contrary.
The initial stages is always to find a natural, medical/scientific explanation.

25

Thanks for the interesting insider-view.

What I still take away from it is that there seems to be an ideological wish in Christianity to believe in demonic possession, even if it’s considered to be rare. Among other things this may be expressed in accusations against practices like Yoga as being demonic. Perhaps this mostly comes from evangelical Protestant groups.

Something similar can perhaps be said of Buddhists, who may preferentially interpret unusual phenomena as signs of reincarnation.

26

I’m certain that there are all kinds of varied phenomena that are often lumped together and thought to be one thing, depending on whoever is interpreting what it is. For example, many so-called ‘ghost hunters/investigators’ automatically think that anything unusual in a ‘paranormal’ sense is either a ‘ghost’ (i.e., the spirit or consciousness of a deceased person or animal) or a demon. There are no other explanations/interpretations for them; they see everything as a ‘black-and-white’ or an ‘either-or’.

And yes, there are many scientifically explainable things that can be mistaken for ‘paranormal’ phenomena, including demonic possession.

There are other things that definitely fall outside the scope of being scientifically verifiable. And many (most?) such things cannot be proven in a laboratory setting, because they do not happen on cue, and IME usually do not repeat themselves in the exact same way.

As for reincarnation, IMO that’s really not something that’s ‘out there’. I believe in it wholeheartedly due to some personal experiences. But IMO it isn’t special. I also believe that everyone has been reincarnated, many times. Others will not agree, and that’s fine, too. When a small child starts speaking a language fluently that he’s never learned, or remembers things about a previous life that are researched and found to be true, even though he had no way of knowing about it, that could be due to reincarnation. But could it also be due to some connection to a ‘non-physical information database’ that they somehow involuntarily accessed? There are more things in creation than any of us can ever know.

27

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1292659]
There are other things that definitely fall outside the scope of being scientifically verifiable. And many (most?) such things cannot be proven in a laboratory setting, because they do not happen on cue, and IME usually do not repeat themselves in the exact same way.[/quote]

Makes sense. Some telepathy type events could depend on close ties between people, and be triggered by major life events, for example. The relevant variables aren’t known and can’t be controlled for in a lab.

So basically this isn’t amenable to scientific treatment (except insofar as scientific explanations may be able to help debunk some specific claims or expose poor reasoning). The best we can do is look at experience and try to reason in a rational way around those experiences. It’s philosophy rather than science. Doesn’t need to be “woo” as long as we aren’t making exaggerated knowledge claims. And it doesn’t have to be “just philosophizing” if its experientially based and part of a wholesome practice.

As for reincarnation, IMO that’s really not something that’s ‘out there’. I believe in it wholeheartedly due to some personal experiences. But IMO it isn’t special. I also believe that everyone has been reincarnated, many times. Others will not agree, and that’s fine, too. When a small child starts speaking a language fluently that he’s never learned, or remembers things about a previous life that are researched and found to be true, even though he had no way of knowing about it, that could be due to reincarnation. But could it also be due to some connection to a ‘non-physical information database’ that they somehow involuntarily accessed? There are more things in creation than any of us can ever know.

This also resonates with me. “Non-physical information database” isn’t even an exotic idea in the west. The Platonic view of mathematical truth, for example, is such a non-physical database that we access (for those inclined to believe in it, which includes scientists and mathematicians). Even supposing reincarnation is real, perhaps that is basically a question of accessing data in that sort of a way. The Buddhist idea is that there is no individual self that reincarnates, instead the next life is the continuation of a changing process. It might be that personality traits, memories, tendencies come to a new body as a kind of accessing of data. The point here is just to emphasize that there are many possible interpretations of abnormal events and experiences.

Where this intersects with the previous discussion on RCC and demonic possession is that hierarchical power structures sometimes want to enforce dogmas to shore up their power and authority. So they preferentially impose one interpretation on abnormal events. This can certainly also happen in Buddhism, at least in countries where Buddhism has been drawn into the process of national identity formation. I believe there are examples where this leads to exaggerated knowledge claims.

28

RE: Demonic possession and reincarnation.

While the RCC and the vast majority of Christianity ( all of orthodox Christianity really) do NOT endorse the view of souls being reborn, there is no possible way that the two would be “confused” UNLESS the reincarnated soul was dangerous to the “soul holder” ( for lack of a better term) AND those around them WHILE displaying physical traits that can NOT be explained by reincarnation ( since reincarnation does NOT change physical features “all of a sudden”).

29

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1292676]RE: Demonic possession and reincarnation.

While the RCC and the vast majority of Christianity ( all of orthodox Christianity really) do NOT endorse the view of souls being reborn, there is no possible way that the two would be “confused” UNLESS the reincarnated soul was dangerous to the “soul holder” ( for lack of a better term) AND those around them WHILE displaying physical traits that can NOT be explained by reincarnation ( since reincarnation does NOT change physical features “all of a sudden”).[/QUOTE]

Yeah, good point now that you mention it. For instance, what is called demonic possessions usually probably involve madness and dangerous behavior, while memories of past lives seem to occur in the benign context of everyday life (or in meditation settings). Also, I believe that belief in possession is common in many Buddhist contexts as well; the distinction perhaps being made by what sorts of thoughts and behaviors arise.

30

There are some belief systems that also invite possession. In Taiwan, I saw some groups who, during public ceremonies such as blessings, would supposedly invite certain deities to temporarily inhabit their bodies, and they would then do various stunts, such as beating their backs bloody with spiked objects swung on the ends of ropes, sticking long needles through one check and out the other, and etc., to demonstrate invulnerability. Often they would fall onto the ground convulsing. Now, whether or not the ‘possession’ was all an act, or if they believed in it but it was only mind over matter, or even real possession, I don’t know. Much of it resembled ‘Shen Da’. They did seem to recover quickly. I’ve seen similar behavior (without the self-abuse) in footage of some voodoo rituals.

31

[QUOTE=rett2;1292649]Thanks for the interesting insider-view.

What I still take away from it is that there seems to be an ideological wish in Christianity to believe in demonic possession, even if it’s considered to be rare. Among other things this may be expressed in accusations against practices like Yoga as being demonic. Perhaps this mostly comes from evangelical Protestant groups.

Something similar can perhaps be said of Buddhists, who may preferentially interpret unusual phenomena as signs of reincarnation.[/QUOTE]

How is it ideological to specifically Christianity? Virtually every ancient culture and religious tradition believed in demonic possession/spirit possession.

[QUOTE=rett2;1292649]
Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc?[/QUOTE]

From the point of view of main stream science, none of these things exist either, so what would be the point?

32

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1292676]RE: Demonic possession and reincarnation.

While the RCC and the vast majority of Christianity ( all of orthodox Christianity really) do NOT endorse the view of souls being reborn, [/QUOTE]

You are correct that all modern organized Christianity disavows reincarnation, but it is interesting that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the reincarnation of Elijah. Some of the gnostic sects of Christianity, pre Constantine, believed in reincarnation.

33

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1292723]You are correct that all modern organized Christianity disavows reincarnation, but it is interesting that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the reincarnation of Elijah. Some of the gnostic sects of Christianity, pre Constantine, believed in reincarnation.[/QUOTE]

No, Jesus saying the John was Elijah was not a statement of reincarnation ( no second temple Jew believed in reincarnation), but of prophetic lineage.
Gnostic sects were/are heretical.

34

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1292723]You are correct that all modern organized Christianity disavows reincarnation, but it is interesting that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the reincarnation of Elijah. Some of the gnostic sects of Christianity, pre Constantine, believed in reincarnation.[/QUOTE]

Technically, Christianity revolves around the hope of direct reincarnation and return of the god.
It also teaches of a life after death in a different kingdom. So, that pretty much fits with reincarnation.

Early Christianity, the Essenes, Nasorenes, etc and their ilk were considered gnostics and this was so until tehy were no longer welcome in the synagogue because they were diverging too far from Judaism. Shortly after that bit of fall out, the Romans made it the state religion and things started looking up for Christians.

By the time the Roman empire fell around 400 CE, Christianity was establishing a foothold in a great many places. By 1000 ce it was the reigning champion of organized religions in the known world as it was employed in the taming of the men of the north (not canadians).

anyway …

35

Exorcism fascinates me

My take on it is more practical perhaps because I do drug interventions and sometimes they get really weird, like the Exorcist. True, that’s a chemically-induced possession, but some of the same religious/cultural techniques can still be healing. I’ve worked with Native American shamans and some devout Christians doing interventions, and as long as the patient has the same belief system, they can be effective (they can also be really annoying when the patient does NOT have share beliefs as they tend to be stubborn). But in my drug intervention work, I’m a pragmatist. If it works, I’m all for it.

Also, I know a few Daoists that practice exorcism, which is my excuse for this thread. It’s something I’d love to explore in a feature article. And that’s not just because I love Mr. Vampire and the whole Kung Fu exorcist comedy genre. :wink:

Here’s the dark side of this:

Hamas ‘exorcism’ ritual used to recruit child terrorists

Islamic preachers use exorcism ritual to brainwash Gaza children, set them on the road to terrorism.

By David Rosenberg
First Publish: 4/11/2016, 8:25 PM

//youtu.be/kfZ0C6aFkf4

Hamas has a new tactic for ensuring fidelity to its radical form of Islam and encouraging young Arabs to volunteer for terrorist actions against Israel – ritual exorcism.

According to the Gatestone Institute, schools in Gaza have welcomed Islamic preachers from The Ship of Missionary Salvation, an organization supported by the Hamas-dominated Waqf Ministry.

The preachers, who visit schools across Gaza, single out children for ritual exorcism, claiming they have been possessed by demon spirits.

Students who are subjected to the ritual are “cleansed," but also find themselves pressured to continue to show signs of their “devotion” to radical Islam.

Videos of such ritual exorcisms, such as the one seen above, have sent shockwaves through the Palestinian Authority, horrifying even many staunchly anti-Israel terror groups.

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine blasted the ritual as “inhumane” and called for an investigation of the practice.

PLO spokeswoman Hanan Ashrawi also condemned the practice, saying that it highlighted the “reactionary nature” of Hamas.

36

I’ve heard a couple stories from people I know about a Taoist monk who was called on to perform exorcisms to clear local buildings (not people). Reportedly it worked.

37

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1292744]Technically, Christianity revolves around the hope of direct reincarnation and return of the god.
It also teaches of a life after death in a different kingdom. So, that pretty much fits with reincarnation.

Early Christianity, the Essenes, Nasorenes, etc and their ilk were considered gnostics and this was so until tehy were no longer welcome in the synagogue because they were diverging too far from Judaism. Shortly after that bit of fall out, the Romans made it the state religion and things started looking up for Christians.

By the time the Roman empire fell around 400 CE, Christianity was establishing a foothold in a great many places. By 1000 ce it was the reigning champion of organized religions in the known world as it was employed in the taming of the men of the north (not canadians).

anyway …[/QUOTE]

Resurrection is NOT reincarnation bro.
I don’t know of any versions of reincarnation in which the ORIGINAL body is resurrected.

38

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1292730]No, Jesus saying the John was Elijah was not a statement of reincarnation ( no second temple Jew believed in reincarnation), but of prophetic lineage.
Gnostic sects were/are heretical.[/QUOTE]

I accept that scripture is open to interpretation, but I think you’d have to perform mental gymnastics to get away from the implication of reincarnation from those verses. I think most Christians do.
At any rate, Jesus certainly broke with Jewish tradition, enough so that they crucified him. He was harder on the Pharisees than any other group and he considered parts of the Mosanic Law to be immoral.

I think it is likely that the historical Jesus/Yeshua was influenced by the Essenes. He clearly did not agree with the doctrine of the Pharisees or Sadducees. Gnostics may or may not have been heretical. We may never really have a clear picture of them, since they were persecuted, murdered and their books burned. One thing is for sure though, they predated what we now call “Orthodox” Christianity.

39

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1292760]I accept that scripture is open to interpretation, but I think you’d have to perform mental gymnastics to get away from the implication of reincarnation from those verses. I think most Christians do.
At any rate, Jesus certainly broke with Jewish tradition, enough so that they crucified him. He was harder on the Pharisees than any other group and he considered parts of the Mosanic Law to be immoral.

I think it is likely that the historical Jesus/Yeshua was influenced by the Essenes. He clearly did not agree with the doctrine of the Pharisees or Sadducees. Gnostics may or may not have been heretical. We may never really have a clear picture of them, since they were persecuted, murdered and their books burned. One thing is for sure though, they predated what we now call “Orthodox” Christianity.[/QUOTE]

The symbolism of the second coming of Elijah is a Jewish interpretation, not a Christian one.
No jew expected Elijah to be reincarnated, case in point the account of the transfiguration where Elijah and Moses show up.
No, I would not agree that gnosticism predated orthodox Christianity.
The first generation and second generation Christians were, most definitely not gnostic.

40

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1292751]Resurrection is NOT reincarnation bro.
I don’t know of any versions of reincarnation in which the ORIGINAL body is resurrected.[/QUOTE]

Technically, according to the scripture, there won’t be a resurrection so much as a return. Seeing as the body already ascended and will return, not resurrect as it’s assumed that that already took place in regards to Jesus even though there is a strong argument that he never actually died on the cross by virtue of not being on it long enough for that to happen. But for believers, that is too provocative. For everyone else, that is reincarnation because the body is left behind, but a new life is promised. One can presume there will be some sort of vessel that will be available in said new life after death.

I personally subscribe to an inevitable form of reincarnation in a more scientific sense and it’s about the chemistry of matter, and the energy/matter interchange.

there’s two dictates in that regard.

  1. Matter is changed, energy is never lost
  2. All matter is formed, grows, faces entropy, is destroyed and then transformed.

It may very well be possible that these processes which are the rules that bind us all in this world may have been misunderstood.

Buddhism subscribes to the idea. But maintains that the consciousness is not carried forward, rather the energy and matter that was one being, becomes another and the process is repeated and repeated and repeated again until the being is freed from the cycle of birth, life and death and presumably goes and mingles with the greater universe.

What I really believe is that concepts of god can mingle with scientific understanding. We can literally find out the true meaning of what is veiled by allegory and metaphor in the teachings of various masters throughout time.