The social/political structure of kung fu schools has nothing to do with skill, and it never really has.
I find this to be very frustrating…so much so that I have searched deliberately to find a school where skill levels matched the political structure.
I think a lot of the frustration comes from how we observe each other’s technique and how we justify our own technique.
Half of the problem with these traditionally structures enviroments is actually giving a s h i t about them.
Etiquette in the Martial Arts
From reading an article talking about it in the December 2004 issue, the topic of Chinese Martial Arts Etiquette in America was brought up / touched on (it was posted on the schools bulletin board).
From talking with a sifu at the school, the problem I said is not the lack of people not following etiquette rules and protocols, but the real problem is ignorance of just what they are and that they exist.
I treat my teachers with respect and the school too, and always thank them for helping me with anything. I may be paying them money, but they are teaching me and spending their time to help me get better using knowledge and hardwork they have spent years learning and practicing.
Now my post here is about:
I do not want to disrespect my school, art, and teachers. I am all for following proper protocol and etiquette, yet is this something I should worry about unless told so by the school? The article was posted on the school’s bb.
Would it be wrong of me to write something up on proper etiquette, like a proposal on practices and proper protocol of etiquette in chinese martial arts?
I just want to do the right thing.
I’ve never viewed my MA practice as a business relationship, me a customer, my teacher the seller.
Yes I pay tuition, but the relationship is much deeper. Sort of like with a college professor. I pay to go earn the credits, but there is respect for the professor, for being an expert in a field I am interested in.
I’ve had a few teachers. The two stand outs are my first karate teacher. He was like a second dad to me. I saw him more than my own dad really, on an hour for hour basis. And now my master. I get to train with one of my heros. I feel lucky, and I wish I could pay him more.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]I’ve never viewed my MA practice as a business relationship, me a customer, my teacher the seller.
Yes I pay tuition, but the relationship is much deeper. Sort of like with a college professor. I pay to go earn the credits, but there is respect for the professor, for being an expert in a field I am interested in.
I’ve had a few teachers. The two stand outs are my first karate teacher. He was like a second dad to me. I saw him more than my own dad really, on an hour for hour basis. And now my master. I get to train with one of my heros. I feel lucky, and I wish I could pay him more. [/B]
Yeah, our school is definitely not a business. The teacher chooses his students. You can’t just come and get accepted as a student.
It seems the american paradigm often drifts to “goods and services”.
Everyone knows the cost but understands little of the value.
But then, Chinese culture is certainly different and it can’t be expected that we western folks understand the intricacies of what is otherwise strange behaviour to us. For example, a Kungfu school and it’s protocol and etiquette.
Having said that, you should know what is expected of you before you have finished your first class. You will likely be informed of any faux pas you have made. If you continue to make the same gaff, I’m sure someone will tell you.
Some Kungfu Kwoons use a familial structure, some use sashes, some use a hybrid of both these so they can fit the mindset of the widest possible audience.
Some Kungfu places are more relaxed (especially if the class is mostly adults) and some are rigid to an almost ridiculous level of self parody when it comes to adhering to cultural traditions.
I wouldn’t sweat it. Just be dilgent in attendance, learning and practice. Be as courteous to everyone as you would like them to be to you and carry on. Everything in time.
cheers
I don’t think it would be wrong for you to generate, perhaps a written proposal and present it to your sifu in regards to etiquette and protocol in your kwoon.
However you should probably talk to him/her about it first to see how he/she is open to the idea.
It could be condescending or challenging to your sifu if you, out of the blue, handed him/her a proposal regarding a way to change some things, even if the outcome would be for the better, particularly if they are of the culture, and you, someone probably not as deep or knowledgeable/experienced of the culture, may be perceived as presenting yourself as if you know more than he/she (your sifu that is). Bottom line though, it is your sifu’s school and he/she decides what or how much of chinese martial arts culture they wish to imbed into their teaching, school, and structure, and from which sort of cultural group or identity(s) they wish to derive those aspects from.
If you are not on a personal level with your sifu, or comfortable enough to talk to him/her, then present your idea to one of your sihing/sije that can relay these ideas or co-present them properly to your sifu.
Re: Etiquette in the Martial Arts
First rule of CMA:
Wear deoderant and gargle with mouthwash.
Amen to that. And wash your gear every now and then.
And try not to rip off a huge F@rt during meditation time.
Greetings..
I neither need nor desire “formal” gestures of “respect” from my students, and i make that clear.. their gestures of respect are subtle and i appreciate the low-key politeness.. we have a good time, keep it light-hearted, occasionally silly.. but, when the lessons are presented and i indicate the importance of the lesson, the students are attentive and sincere.. the highest measure of respect is the level of dedication and hard work the student will output.. the level of participation in extracurricular activities such as school maintenance, marketing, etc..
And, i respect anyone willing to invest their time, effort and hard earned dollars toward their self-improvement and self-defense, particularly if they choose me as an instructor.. we have no formal ranking system, though i may issue certificates of achievement from time to time..
More importantly, to me, is the transmission of a code of honor.. that the Art be used for self-defense and self-improvement.. that any harm be balanced with the knowledge to heal that which you have hurt.. that, beyond gaining control of a conflict, there is no honor in inflicting more hurt or harm.. that injustice left unchallenged will only get worse.. that, at some level, we possess “professional” knowledge and are (should be) bound by a code of professional ethics.. that we can make a difference in our communities..
Be well…
Originally posted by Kung Lek
And try not to rip off a huge F@rt during meditation time.
As long as it’s not smelly, it’s ok, right?
Originally posted by Newb
As long as it’s not smelly, it’s ok, right?
yeah if its quite.
and I wish I could pay him more.
if that were true you probably would be…
And try not to rip off a huge F@rt during meditation time.
according to this old chinese guy in my first wingchun class, that’s just bad chi escaping 
Etiquette: Question for “Scholar”, or anyone else…
Scholar,
Since we go to the same school, you’re the person who could make the most relevant comment, but anyone can answer, of course.
Etiquette: When learning something directly from Sifu (Sifu Eddie Wu in our case) is there a specific etiquette? For instance, if he is in the class as you are training, and he happens to come to you to correct something, comment on a stance, etc. Universally, when taught by a Master (at least in my experience), you listen without interupting or disputing his/her direction, etc. I assume thats the same, but do you bow after he’s finished with his comments? Do I call him Sifu/? Sifu Eddie? Sifu Wu?
Not that I expect to learn from him directly for some time (still a beginner), but I just don’t want to blow it or show disrespect without knowing it.
Any comments?
shawn
p.s. Scholar, did you see the new shirts? They’re cool.
Greetings Shawn.
You are correct not to interrupt, make excuses or apologise if you are corrected. Just listen. Respectful questions are more than OK. Sifu does like technical questions, IME, and you will get some good info with good questions. When you do get a correction from Sifu or a senior, thank them. “Thank you Sifu” or if it is Nick or someone at his rank “Thank you Sihing.” It is an honour to be corrected by Sifu in the old tradition, and you should work on his correction as much as you can. You don’t want the same correction again!
My best advice is to watch Sifu like a hawk, but discreetly. The mirrors are handy for this. If he does it, it is correct. If you see someone else, anyone else, doing the same move and it doesn’t look quite the same, work on Sifu’s version. He was trained from a young age by his family, and he quite literally has T’ai Chi pouring out of him when he teaches, you don’t want to miss a thing. Later, when you have your own kung fu, your forms may not look exactly like his (especially if you are built differently) but for now the fastest way forward is strict imitation.
Another good etiquette point is not to bring up other styles or teachers on the training floor. For training, if Sifu doesn’t teach it, it doesn’t exist. Why waste training time debating? Sifu can mention them, but not us. The tea room is a different story, but even there you should be respectful of other styles if you do mention them.
Whenever Sifu enters, you should stand up or stop what you are doing and respectfully greet him, even if you are the only one who does so. He may act like you don’t have to, but he secretly enjoys it. If you hand him anything, hand it to him with two hands, the same if you take anything from him, use two hands. Also, if he is lighting incense, you should stop what you are doing and stand quietly while he does so, looking discreetly at the pictures of the ancestors.
Very nice new shirts, contemporary. Now what am I going to do with my old shirts? I’ve got two different-era versions of the Hong Kong uniform as well…
I hope this helps, it sounds like you are doing fine. I live a looong way from Toronto, so I don’t get in as much as I used to, but if I see you there I’ll say hello.
Cheers!
Thanks Scholar. I’ll make use of your advice. Its sort of what I expected, but you detailed some things I would not have thought about.
For your instruction, and correction, I’ll say “Thank you Sihing”.
If you visit Toronto, I’ll be the guy trying to “walk” properly. See you sometime.
shawn
Just listen to scholar, because there’s no formal etiquette for this kind of thing, and it’s different from school to school. Of course you have to follow basic politeness (don’t interupt when he’s talking, argue, or other generally rude bahaviour).
Brad & Scholar are giving very good info. In general be polite (what a novel idea, if only the world could follow suit 
).
As for titles…the ego is a funny thing, and here in the west (not implicating Mr. Wu) it seems to be a silly fad to call teachers Sifu/Shrfu/Master etc. In China they shake their heads at our fascination with this ego stroking, and many Chinese who come here take full advantage (again not implicating anyone specifically).
If we want to get technical the proper term is Laoshi, literally “old teacher.” It is not just for martial arts, but for any all posistions of teacher-student relationships. Once you are formally “adopted” as a disciple then it is proper (if your teacher requests it) to call him shrfu/sifu in Cantonese. This literally means “Teacher father.” Connotating the familial ties. But even in most cases old school teachers do not require you to refer to them as Shrfu.
For those interested I have an extensive article on discipleship in the Chinese Martial Arts on my site under articles.
Cheers
Jake 
Many times I just nod to regester what he has said has sunk in and I get back to business. Sometimes it calls for a salute and a “Thanks Master”, and then getting back to business.
Do what your heart tells you to at the moment.
Adendum question: OK, I finally met Sifu Wu and did the right fist, left palm bow, and he smiled and seemed appreciative. Later that night I began chatting with Sifu Paul about the “levels” of etiquette.
He mentioned that the etiquette applies to the training hall, but not the common reception/lounge area. There he’s just Paul. OK, so my question is, does this same rule apply to Sifu Wu? I’m guessing he’s always Sifu, and he always deserves a bow for respect, in and out of the training hall. However, I don’t want to be a **** and do it wrong by calling him Sifu and bowing out side the training hall to find out I blew it.
Any fellow Wu students - can you clarify this from your own experience? Its also important to note that the etiquette between disciples, students and Sifu is different yet again. I’m not a disciple, just a beginner student.
shawn
p.s. I’m not trying to be a **** about it. I’m also not a white guy who whishes he was born Asian. I truly just want to show the proper respect to Sifu, my fellow students and the disciples. And I want to do it in the way that Sifu wants it done. I just don’t want to ask HIM how to do it 