Trapping
Yes these drills are there for a reason.But as you get more advanced,you start to focus more and more on “trapping” the whole structure of the opponent.That’s when you can zero on the objective!
It’s a very simple way to explain a very difficult thing to do! 
C’est la vie!
TKD: The Rodney Dangerfield of Martial Arts
It may sound funny MonkeySlap but my master has stopped calling it TKD and calls it karate. He’s not hiding what it is from anyone but we have more in common with Shotokan and the Okinawan styles than the WTF these days and it just makes describing it easier. I know he took a CMA a long way back and that might also be what influences his style of TKD. But I swear we’re not like the other guys, really. 
C’mon guys ya gotta believe me.
[This message was edited by rogue on 01-16-01 at 09:02 PM.]
TKD and Kung Fu
There is no comparison between Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu. Tae Kwon Do has become so diluted and messed up that it’s now an Olympic sport that people laugh at when watching. Hit the target and score points? Surely, theres more purpose to a martial art than hitting regions lightly for two or three points.
Kung Fu, on the other hand no matter what style is going strength to stength. A lot of people are leaving TKD and moving to Kung Fu for a more purposeful self defence system which TKD has popularised and turned into a joke compared to what it once was
If you hold anything back, I’ll kill you. If you bend the truth, or if
I think you’re bending the truth, I’ll kill you. If you forget
anything, I’ll kill you. In fact, you’re going to have to work very
hard to stay alive, Nick. I hope you understand everything
Im going to play it safe on this one.
I have experience in both TKD and wing chun. I studied tae kwon do for a couple of years, and have been doing wing chun off and on since I was in high school (my brother is the one that taught me but Ive been moving due to my job. So learning new info is far in between, but practice of what I do know is constant.)
Anyway, I must say that these two styles are almost like yin and yang in their structure. They emphasize different things altogether, range and technique.
I have found that being able to kick from just about any angle is a great skill and can help both far and near (no one said tae kwon do kicks were always high…). Ive found in wing chun that simplicity is the key and that controlling the opponent is a great help.
So my conclusion is this. Why not combine the two? Thats what I did, and so far, Ive no complaints. Instead of worrying about what style can beat what style, get an all around martial education so that you are well rounded, and at least familiar with what other people do, so that you can minimize the suprize of anyones attacks. Knowledge is power in this case.
Mostly I just want to spur on Rogue’s 1,000th post…
Rogue - I can beleive that, as my favorite TKD guy from Korea wasn’t even a TKD guy but a kickboxer who fought in Thailand. Lotsa people use the TKD name. Lots of branches to that tree.
Most of my gripes against TKD have been centered around mistruths propogated by Korean instructors. Not against dedicated martial artists. It just happens to be my opinion that TKD is pretty flawed as a combat art. This does not mean that somewhere there are dedicated TKD students studyiong and researching ways to make the art more martial. I’m just not into reinventing the wheel. Millions of Chinese warriors died so I don’t have to. What a product endorsement.
For that matter, I’m not sure TKD was EVER anything very complex. Built out of Shotokan Karate and turned into a sport and morale builder for the ROC army. Even the Korean government classifies it as a sport, not a martial art.
Now, there isn’t anything wrong with that, it is just what it is. Maybe you do something else. Heck, I’d love to see what you practice someday.
There Is No Superior Art
If you are trained by an experienced traditional Master it won’t matter which martial art you decide to practice. What many of the practitioners who have responded have failed to mention is that there are many Kung-Fu frauds with small schools out there just trying to make a buck.
I train in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, the more traditional martial art of Korea, which has many Japanese and Chinese martial influences. I train under an 8th Dan Korean Grandmaster, and he has told us many times that at the highest levels of any martial art a well-trained Master will be able to adapt to any situation. To further this notion, we train in response to many varying attacks (close and ranged).
Look for a Tang Soo Do school… there are less fake ones out there because it is a less well-known art than either TKD or Kung-Fu.
James Moore
3rd Dan, International Tang Soo Do Association
Now that is funny
I hate to burst your bubble, but TSD isn’t that impressive. ‘more traditional’ god forbid I defend TKD, but other than empty words on the web, I have seen no evidence of TSD being anything other than another Korean take off of Shotokan Karate.
As far as higher levels go, go pick a fight with a skilled high school wrestler and see how well you fare.
Different martial arts do teach different things better. For instance, pre FMA training I would of got my behind handed to me in a weapons match. CMA just does not prepare you the same way. This myth that everything is equal is an unfortunate by product of self esteem versus performance based education. Now, I would agree that the individual fighter can make a big difference, but training methods count a great deal too. There are reasons athletes in certain countries perform better than ones from other countries. For that matter in combat a ‘secret’ technique can really help - if your opponent hasn’t anticipated the move in training, he is toast.
So don’t feel bad if I chuckle at TSD. I am sure you are a fine person, but please, don’t beleive everything you hear. And if you wonder why I chuckle at TSD just look at the books out on it - I mean come on. Try the high school wrestler test. It might change your preceptions a bit.
“I’m just not into reinventing the wheel. Millions of Chinese warriors died so I don’t have to. What a product endorsement.”
Do I really have to say it? Ok, I will anyway. That’s like giving kudos to all the people that bought Hugos. Personally I’d rather learn what the survivors knew! 
“For that matter, I’m not sure TKD was EVER anything very complex. Built out of Shotokan Karate and turned into a sport and morale builder for the ROC army. Even the Korean government classifies it as a sport, not a martial art.”
I’m learning that’s there’s more to Shotokan/old TKD than meets the eye. There’s a lot of things (throws, breaks, pressure points and ever strikes) in the kata that are obvious once you know what to look for. It may not be complex but it’s definatly not simple.
Many MA suffer from being used as a military moral booster, but that doesn’t take away from an arts effectiveness. BJJ is being taught to some military units as a moral booster, is it now relagated to being ineffective?
Sport TKD and TKD/karate aren’t even the same animule, so I can’t discuss that.
In Defense of Tang Soo Do
First of all MonkeySlap Too, you clearly haven’t read much in-depth literature concerning Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do. These martial arts are 60% Okinawan, 30% Northern Shaolin, and 10% Southern Shaolin - thus taking many aspects from both the Okinawan/Japanese traditions and the Chinese traditions. In other words, Tang Soo Do is a living art and has continually evolved to incorporate new forms of offensive and defensive strategies that Tae Kwon Do has overlooked to focus more on solely the kicking emphasis.
Chuck Norris, Billy Blanks, and many other prize fighting martial artists were Tang Soo Do practitioners who could hold their own against any BJJ, Wing Chun, or other martial artist.
Even those that criticize every aspect of Tae Kwon Do, often respect Tang Soo Do as an exception because of its stringent training methods and emphasis on learning to defend against many varying angles of attack.
The main point, however, is that a Master of any of these martial arts has an equal chance against a Master of another martial art. The chief idea behind martial arts is to be able to defend against an unpredictable opponent with speed and precision. A Master from any art should be able to do this.
Sorry to get in so late, KFLearner. Thanks, rogue, for giving me a good thought.
KFLearner,
TKD is equally fine for self-defense. Pay attention to your forms. Though, I will admit that just doing the TaeGuk poomse can get awfully boring. I suggest getting at least getting to your first dan black belt before you take on another art. And, more advice, when you take on the second art, keep it seperate.
I’m in my seventh year of TKD and my third anniversary for Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu is next month. I keep both seperate and I see a lot of similarities and a lot of differences. I take both because I’m in love with both, not because either one is difficient–they are sufficient for me.
I would suggest finding a Kung Fu that compliments an aspect of TKD but is not close to it. Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu with Tam Tui is a good compliment because it conditions the leg with low, low, low stances and one-legged squat kicks. Other kung fu styles might compliment TKD–monkey style (fast footwork), five animals, and so on. I don’t know enough about Wing Chun’s moves to know if it would compliment TKD or get confused with it. Personally, I like having something entirely different.
Robin
Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.
No one dares…
I’m not talking about ‘another master’, I’m talking about a skilled HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLER.
And I have investigated TSD/SBD - bwah-ha-ha!! I think everyone should practice it. {snicker} It’ll make the world safer for me.
How do you define your percentages? That sounds so precise. It is just annoying because I have seen so many Korean stylists play the China card because it helps them sell to the rubes.
I would not be surprised if more knowledge is being ‘discovered’ in your arts, as a lot of legit stuff is now available on video tape.
All I ask you are two things - Do you fight with your forms? Have you fought with a high school wrestler yet?
Oh, and I apologize if I sound snide - I just have years of lies fostered by TKD/TSD groups boiling up in me. Call like I see it. Maybe you see it different.
Welcome Kyo Sa Nim Moore, don’t let Monkey slap get to you. After all he has recently admited to studying the art practiced by a losing side.
I know zip about TSD, so how about filling us in.
What Okinawan styles does it draw from and has it retained any of the kata? I’d think Naihanchi/Tekki would be in there as that seems to be one of the most important to the Okinawan styles.
Monkey Slap, what style of Tae Bo are you doing now? I hear that the Tae bo live tape is bitchin!
damn!!
Well for one I didn’t think that this would get this many posts. Wow.
Ok I do plan on going to 1st, or 2nd dan black belt in TKD, then that is when I really want to go for a style of Kung fu. I figure, strong footwork and kicking, combined with strong blocking, jabbing and punching will suit me well!!!
well thank you all!!
lataz,
kflearner
Info on Tang Soo Do
Ok, in response to MonkeySlap’s comments first. I have fought both college wrestlers and BJJ practitioners, and have fared well against both of them. The problem with most TKD artists is that they have a set of strategies to use against only other TKD artists, rather than adapting to their opponent.
Wrestlers tend to move in very fast, but if you are a skilled TSD martial artist you will learn to kick harder and faster than they can move in. We also focus on the joint locks, arm bars, leg bars, etc. of Hap Ki Do which are effective if you are taken to the ground.
Of course there are many fake TSD and TKD instructors and schools out there - the same goes with Kung-Fu, but if you are trained by an experienced Master you will see the true effectiveness of every martial art.
Those percentages I gave come directly from the Founder of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, GM Hwang Kee. There is no way to verify the exact percentages, but they seem accurate because there are many Hyungs (forms in Korean) that are based on Shaolin Kung-Fu (mainly Long Fist).
There are Naihanji forms (from the Okinawan traditon) in Tang Soo Do, but some schools have translated their names into Korean - so they are called Keemah forms now. These are very characteristic of the Shotokan style forms. Whereas, the forms such as Bassai (snake style form) are very quick and aerobic in nature - similar to some styles of Kung-Fu.
Okay, I’ll bite…
Never one to think I know it all (but I won’t agree just to make nice, I have this thing about honesty), and not one to be bothered by Rogues churlish Tae Bo inference, I’d like to see if there is Video anywhere of the Long Fist as practiced by TSD.
Having met TSD practitioners, I have a hard time seeing how the principles of these two arts could blend. My assumption would be that the TSD version of Long Fist would be Long Fist motions with TSD principles.
Just curious.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Long Fist In Tang Soo Do
There is a hyung called ‘So Rim Jang Kwon’ which is an advanced Dan level hyung. It translates from Korean into ‘Shaolin Long Fist’ and it uses many of the movements that I’ve seen advanced Shaolin Long-Fist practitioners use. Another Kung-Fu related hyung in TSD is ‘Tae Geuk Kwan’ which translates into ‘Grand Ultimate Fist’ which is related to Tai Chi-Chuan forms.
Most likely your friends are not trained by a very knowledgeable Master or are not very advanced. I’m a 3rd Dan about to test for 4th Dan (Master) and have been training in TSD for 15 years. I speak out of experience, not ignorance.
Long Fist In Tang Soo Do
There is a hyung called ‘So Rim Jang Kwon’ which is an advanced Dan level hyung. It translates from Korean into ‘Shaolin Long Fist’ and it uses many of the movements that I’ve seen advanced Shaolin Long-Fist practitioners use. Another Kung-Fu related hyung in TSD is ‘Tae Geuk Kwan’ which translates into ‘Grand Ultimate Fist’ which is related to Tai Chi-Chuan forms.
Most likely your friends are not trained by a very knowledgeable Master or are not very advanced. I’m a 3rd Dan about to test for 4th Dan (Master) an
Aw c’mon Monkey I’m just having fun with ya. Anyway one day you might want to take up the martial arts and that Tae Bo will come in handy.
Hey did you read all of that link I posted to you?
If not scroll on down it you’ll get a laugh out of it.
Hmm
Actually there is a high level form in Tae Bo called ‘ow I popped my knee’. I think it comes from TKD…I speak from experience…
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
TDK & KF
I think it would be very diffucult to “serve two masters at the same time” so to speak. Then again there are vast difference between Northern & Southern KF styles.
For example a freind of mine has been able to train in TDK as well as Wing Chun. Both styles don’t require the sophsticated waist movements as in the Northern Syles.
My background had been in TDK. The first go i had atMantis was very very difficult. The main problem was the “stiffness” in TDK (you’ll know what I mean once you start training in Northern KF) was really working against the KF system.
Nevertheless, the stifness was purged after a 5+ years of absence from martial arts (due to unrelated reasons) which during that time I trained in free style partner dancing (modern Jive).
So looking back - I don’t thnink TKD really helped that much. True it taught the basic stances but that’s about it. From my persepctive mantis is by far a more efficient system. Oh BTW the training method is just as important - got to make sure that it is consistent with the objectives of the style ( but that’s another topic for discussion).
All the best in your search. Listen to Obiwan - he is a more accomplished Jedi than I!
Ego Maximize!