you can work trapping when your opponet pulls their hand back, you grab the hand on the way back.
trapping does work if their hands are appart. you may not nessecarily cross them up.
you can trap when things get hot and heavy, it just takes a LOT of skill and mental calm.
you should be able to pull off stuff like lop sau (bong wu, lop da). Its hard, but I have done it when things get hot and heavy. you just have to ingrain it into your reflexes under stressful sparring. basically you have to make yourself keep using it in sparring even though you’re getting the crap beaten out of you until you can make it work, then you don’t get the crap beaten out of you any more. and all the advantages of being able to really apply lop sau open up.
you just have to ingrain it into your reflexes under stressful sparring. basically you have to make yourself keep using it in sparring even though you’re getting the crap beaten out of you until you can make it work
Truer words, never spoken.
What I wanna talk about is why whether trapping “works” is even an issue to begin with. To me it’s 2 things; Definiton of 'trapping" and what your strategy should be when fighting if you’re trying to use WC techniques.
There are many definitions of 'trapping' but the one word that describes it best is 'control'; Controlled hitting. Why hitting? because too many people in wing chun lack an idea of what they are supposed to be doing in a REAL confrontation. You are meant to hit....first, last and foremeost. If this is your FIRST goal in an encounter, you will easily accomplish this by inteerception. Forward pressure....chain punches. If he resists this pressure, then you 'clear the way' with your 'traps' to ENABLE YOU TO KEEP ON HITTING.
Too may wing chunners focus on how many "-sau's" they can pull off. This is irrelevant as they only appear based on contact sensitivity. If the contact isn't there or isn't sufficient enough for you to react in a "-sau" :D , then simply keep hitting.
nice private messages. glad to hear from someone who does more than rpely on theory and armchair experiences
what i meant wa basically there is in most cases no NEED to try to trap. block and attack. block and counter. see opening? hit.
hardly any crossing of hands or need to “tie” up the opponents hands…just waste of time and energy when you can just hit
besides if you block properly the person’s arm goes away from you and it doesnt’ stay for a trap or other more complicated techniques
for example after a high gang there’s hardly any situation where you need to huen and then use palm. the ging should cause the opponent’s hand to fly away anyways leaving your hand free to hit without a huen sau and sticking to his bridge.
i use bong sau and pak sau as "transition moves as well. not as intercepting techniques. i prefer biu and tan to bong because bong has a weak structure (rotator easily injured) and hard to time properly. also defensive in nature…have to waste time setting up counter such as lap da when you can biu and hit from the start, etc
i think pak is dangerous b/c it’s easy to miss since the contact point is just the heel of the palm when you have an entire forearm to block with using other moves.
but AFTER contact is made then bong and pak come in very handy…especially the collapsing bong.
i guess what i’m trying to say is that its important to figure out through a whole lot of trial and error first how to make more “advanced” wing chun moves work.
like doing the huen and palm strike after the high gang sau (jom sau).
or making the full lop sau work.
part of the advantage of doing teh high gang sau is that you cab deflect (where their arm bounces off yours) with it (hard) or you can redirect with it (keep contact) and heun and palm strike. the heun and palm let you get on the inside.
both ways are fine to do it.
I think pak sau is a good block, its one of your basics. i pak with the center of my palm. pak and wu with your lead hand a are good way to deal with a boxer’s jab then come back with your own.
kwj- you mentioned how many “saus” people could pull off, I would sort of define it as how many “lop’s” (lap, grab) you can pull off. not that you should be be really going too far past 2 lops, some times 3 if the person is really good.
the reason I prefer to trap is so that I’m taking away one of my opponents hands, so they can’t use if for offence or defence. so then with my other hand punching they have to defend with their other hand, so then i can set them up cause i know they have to block or get hit.
I get what you’re saying about if you can hit do it. I think a balance of controling a hand and just going for the opening is needed.
since im short, i have a very short reach. a lot of time i’m out of range to just attack the opening, or they are in range to hit me and I can’t hit them. so trapping lets me get their arms out of the way so I can get in close. so trapping really does work for me and its sort of a necessity.
Originally posted by wingchunalex 1. you can work trapping when your opponet pulls their hand back, you grab the hand on the way back.
Absolutely not IMO. Here you are chasing hands - which is not the objective of WCK. You would hit while possibly pressing and pinning his other hand against his body since it is retracting.
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu Why hitting? because too many people in wing chun lack an idea of what they are supposed to be doing in a REAL confrontation. You are meant to hit…first, last and foremeost. If this is your FIRST goal in an encounter.
Exactly. The trap is happenstance. When you attack the center and something gets in the way it is removed via the trap - if they resist you change to flow with their resistance. Thas what trapping is.
Originally posted by EmptyCup
[B]i think pak is dangerous b/c it’s easy to miss since the contact point is just the heel of the palm when you have an entire forearm to block with using other moves.
[/B]
Agree. Pak is a very small area of control to gamble your life on. Pak is best used AFTER contact to remove an obstruction. A Fook provides the entire surface of the inside of the forearm to control the line. Assuming of course that the elbow is in close to the line where it is supposed to be. Otherwise that won’t work either.
Originally posted by EmptyCup er..which “fook” are you talking about? you mean “pow”? the high block by your ear?
Don’t know what a Pow is. For receiving a mid level ouside/in attack, which is how Pak Sao normally is used to ‘receive’ at punch as in the drill - a Fook Sao closes the same line but has a much larger area to make contact with the incoming.
Fook Sao - the outside gate tool in Chi-Sao. Example:
He shoots a straight right at your mid section using Fook to receive the attack it changes, as contact happens into Jut Da.
Originally posted by EmptyCup
[B]yes i know what fook sau is in chi sau. but fook sau doesnt’ really exist beyond that so to speak.
it’s not a block. it’s like huen sau…a name for a transitional technique.
that’s why i’m confused…how would one go about blocking/intercepting with fook? [/B]
Just as I wrote:
He shoots a straight right at your mid section using Fook to receive the attack it changes, as contact happens into Jut Da.
A fook exists to control a zone - close a line. The forearm fills up that part of the line. If you start in Man Sao and the attack flows into the inside line at your chest then the Man Sao should change into Fook to close the line and then may Jut to gain control, or may convert directly into a punch as the elbow controls the incoming shot. If you Jut with the Fook you would hit with the other hand.
If you wouldn’t use Fook to control an inside middle line attack and you wouldn’t use Pak, which I agree with, then what would you use? The elbow needs to come in to close that line!
These tools Fook and Tan, Biu, Gum, etc, are designed to close off lines as an attack comes in - Man Sao, if you use that, must change and close the zone under attack by filling up the Centerline.
Before anything else, my definition of a trap is when you control both the opponent’s hands with one hand. That leaves your other hand free to strike (or do whatever you want to do). The opponent’s hands may not necessarily be crossed (one hand on top of the other).
Originally posted by EmptyCup
[B]i’d use high gang…which blocks an inside attack from the outside
i dont’ quite see how fook is used still. are you saying that it looks the same as the fook used in chi sau but just as a block?
are you talking about mun sau as in the man sau from biu tze? [/B]
A Man Sao is an Asking Hand.
In the senario I described it is a transition from a Man Sao to a Fook. The elbow leads the forearm into the line, but the Fook closes the same line as in Chi-Sao supported by the elbow, which is the same line Pak controls in the Pak Sao excercise .
The purpose of using the Fook is the same as in Chi-Sao in so much as you are clearing the line. The benefit of the Fook is the large surface area of the forearm used to FILL THE CENTER and receive the attack. The Fook redirects the incoming energy across the Centerline in order to clear a path. The elbow supports the tool so that it can handle a high level of attacking energy. This is based on the core WCK concept of filling up the ‘door’ and clearing the line. You could also bring the opposite hand inside - with footwork too - and use a chopping hand from Wu Sao as in Lop Sao to clear the line, however the elbow should be in for structural support in any case and to provide the longest - strongest - largest surface area for meeting the attacking force, which is why I agreed with not using the Pak. But all of this depends on the angle with respect to your center and his plus the distance.
Absolutely not IMO. Here you are chasing hands - which is not the objective of WCK. You would hit while possibly pressing and pinning his other hand against his body since it is retracting.
Sounds familiar - “pressing and pinning his other hand against his body since it is retracting” -
The other night we were working a drill using lan sau. Using arrow walk to press forward with lan sau, while using our free hand to hit. All of this stemmed from our opponent covering up from our initial punch to the face and then backing away under the pressure.
i know what mun sau is and means but i still don’t see what you’re saying. argh. oh well that’s the problems with writing sometimes…pictures are better!
and sorry bout the gang/gaan thing…i just try to spell it phoenetically as how it sounds in cantonese as i don’t know if there are any standard ways of spelling wing chun terms
It may help us understand each other better. The example I am talking about is similar to their Jut or Jum Sao example in terms of how to receive the attack.
