Andy M: Good query!
In reality you seldom say never. The key is how you use circumstances. While in wc you do not deliberately go backwards-
sometimes you dont have a choice -someone can give you an unexpected shove from the front. You can fall/step back into a stance and punch forward at the same time. You have regained your structure and attacked the center at the same time.On occasion you can live twice- a second chance- karma and reincarnation.
And chum kiu shows the way!
Good point old jong, about trapping.
I have a slight conceptual problem that I’m working through with my wing chun: coming from an aiki background, I often think having a hand on my opponent’s arm as a deflection is tantamount to having ‘trapped’ him. This doesn’t lead me to chasing his hands, or to looking for the perfect pin before striking, but it does sometimes lead me to a false sense of security about how much control I have.
Of course, on the all-too infrequent occasions when I am keeping a really good structure, a good deflection on an arm which is often going back anyway, with good forward elbow energy, will lead to an ‘accidental’ pin. And, of course, if I’m really keeping to good wing chun principles, I’ve already hit him anyway!!
Joy, good point also. We were taught that one step back under pressure should be enough to regain your structure if you had lost it.
Thanks, both.
andym
Never more than 1 step back is a good beginners training tool.
It is assumed that if you have to step back you cannot handle your opponents forward energy.If you keep stepping straight back you allow his energy to build and your position gets worse.The more you step back in the face of strong energy the easier you lose your balance/structure and the harder it is to regain it.This is why you need to learn to shift,side step and angle step in all directions and of course absorb energy.
Just been practicing that today. It’s hard but I am starting to find it pays off going forward. My own footwork is useless but I am working on it.
Actually, a question for everyone (I think a naive question too as I expect a certain answer but here goes anway).
If a BJJ rushes at you and you are in a basic stance, what steps would you take to avoid being taken to ground? I am interested in the footwork you’d need to practice.
Hunt1 - what do you mean by absorb energy?
if your instructor tells you to not take more than one step back in training, he’s at least doing something right. the idea is to teach you to deal with an excess of forward pressure in ways that allow you to continue your attack. if you continue to train like that, you’ll become a dangerous person becuase when someone is attacking, they generally aren’t prepared to defend, it takes a psychological shift. if you just step back, you limit your ability to attack, and it destroys your forward energy. defend by maintaining your potential for attack. if you limit how much you can retreat when training, you’ll learn how to find otherways of dealing with an overpowering attack. that’s why we were all kind of laughing at the idea of 'backing him up" backing anybody is a good general tactic, but I think it’s hardest IMO to back up a good wing chun person. I wouldn’t worry about being backed up too much, but do train with people that are strong enough to overpower you so that you can dissapate naturally.
regards,
kevin
Limiting the amount you can step back may just be a training tool, but in reality if it is OK to step back once then why not twice or three times if that is what the situation demands ? I’m not saying that you aim to fight on the run, but there are going to be times when you want to keep some distance between you and the opponent and stepping back is one way of doing that. I don’t agree with yuanfen that you never deliberately step backwards - I do agree though that if you do you can still be attacking forwards as you do it.
I just started wing chun but the best defense against this style is a good kicking offense. I have been allowed to spar as soon as I started because of my experiance with shaolin. I found most of the guys I fought were great with their hands but had no defense for a fast kick to the head, chest, or stomach. I have always heard alot about high kicks don’t get in, But they do and they work very well. Now when I spar I don’t use my feet. That way I develop my hand techs. I’m not knocking WC. i love it!I like its sweeping techs. My Wing chun sifu says he could sweep anybody. Big claim but whats sick is, he really can and does allthe time.
mortal sez
I just started wing chun but the best defense against this style is a good kicking offense. I have been allowed to spar as soon as I started because of my experiance with shaolin.
Hi mortal -you must not be “sparring” with very accomplished wing chun folks.
Very Interesting Thread
Hi everyone,
I am interested in learning a little more about WC, could anyone recommend me a site to learn a little more about the techniques involved preferably with some pictures or something?
Thanks a lot for any help!
Take care,
NPM
popsider sez;
I don’t agree with yuanfen that you never deliberately step backwards
No problem with having different opinions. Careful. IMO a good wc person can walk someone into a wall or whatever is behind
if someone starts stepping back. It all has to with timing and structure.
I am interested in learning a little more about WC, could anyone recommend me a site to learn a little more about the techniques involved preferably with some pictures or something?
Hi NPMantis,
I’d highly reccomend…
http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/site.html
AndyM
Hi Andy M- Thanks for sharing that site. Someone put in a lot of work in the moving illustrations. They deserve real credit.. While the devil is in the details…non wc folks should get an idea of the basic sequences.
yuanfen and the devil
Yuen fen
How do you know they are not accomplished? Or that I am not accomplished? Or how well I kick? You wouldn’t agree its not mostly hands? Or are you trying to say a wc guy has a kicking arsenal like shaolin? You wouldn’t agree most of the training focuses on the hands? You think your a real wc guy lol.? Whatever. Good luck with your training.
Mortal,
I like high kicks too but not because they are effective. As you progress you’ll see that WC has kicks to deflect kicks but more importantly you’ll see that WC guys train to move in quickly to prevent you from launching in the first place - it does take practice but proficient WC guys (of which I am not one I hasten to add) can and do prevent you from having the range to do it. This is what Yianfen is getting at - In WC you always try to move forwards so that the opponent is too busy countering your moves rather than thinking what he’s going to do. I know this sounds great in theory but it does happen in practice as you get more proficient. That said, I have kicked high and got away with it and also been punished for it as well so in the end it comes down to the skill factor.
One thing I have learned though is that when you kick high you can and do get tired more quickly than when you don’t. The thing about some high kicks in particular is that even though you might get kicked you often know when it’s coming (not always ie you get hit) - with WC low kicks you don’t know when it’s coming and
it can come as a bit of a surprise.
BTW Have you tried spinning kicks on a proficient WC guy? I have tried it and had a boot up my behind (served me right eh 
)
The question was whats a good defense against wc? You could rip apart any answer with how great wing chun is. So were are the wholes. Am I going to here about how your average wc is better at defending kicks. they are better with their hands and thats the bottom line. When I spar i will always have success with kicking. i have found it to be something southern style guys need to take a little more seriously. Even the couple of times my kick was caught I still landed many head shots while both his hands were used to trap my kicking leg. Leaving the face completely open.
Others should focus on their own posts. I find most people in these forums are know it alls who sit around picking apart posts. Always looking to argue. Try being more positive and less arrogant. You’ll live longer.
If a BJJ rushes at you and you are in a basic stance, what steps would you take to avoid being taken to ground?
I’d sprawl, and I’d be more concerned if an olmypic freestyle wrestler “rushed” at me, as they have better takedowns IMO. Of course, I practice grappling as well as WC.
I’ve had a fair amount of luck stiff-arming the shooter at the neck or shoulder, and moving off line ot the same side, but I’ve been taken down a lot by good shooters too.
A good grappler ain’t gong to come straight in with a telegraphed shoot anyway. There are guys I’ve seen who can fake a jab and shoot a double leg as fast as most people can jab cross - or throw two chain punches. Scary to watch!
Best thing to do is make friends with some grapplers and work off what they do, find out what works for yourself, rather than theorising about it on the internet.
mortal, my Sifu has a kicking arsenal that would put most TKD BB’s to shame. I’d say I’m none too shabby myself. Too many WC guys are taught that “high kicks don’t work and thus are easy to overcome” and thus think they don’t have to train to deal with them. Why kick high? Because I CAN.
AndyM
Thanks a lot mate, really great site!
mortal
You miss my point. It does not matter how good the kicker is.
My point has to do with the development fo wing chun knowledge.
It takes time. Beginners properly spend and should spend time with their stance and foundations. At that stage they are not likely to know how to handle many things including kicks and can be intimidated by all sorts of things. With proper teaching and learning the chum kiu and wing chun footwork and chi sau timing devlopment things change for a properly educated wing chun person. Shouldnt waste time on sparring until good fundamental skills are developed. After that good wc is effective against kickers and grapplers etc. How do I know you ask? Have been doing it for a long time…and against very good kickers..and demonstrate it from time to time. I have no problem with you taking pride in your kicks. Actually wing chun has lots of kicks- but
much of the time not necessary to use them. I have no idea on what wing chun you have seen, Depending on the individuals many things may seem to work. Mistake to infer systemic things from single cases.
mortal sez and the immortal yuanfen reploes:
Yuen fen
How do you know they are not accomplished? Or that I am not accomplished? Or how well I kick? You wouldn’t agree its not mostly hands? Or are you trying to say a wc guy has a kicking arsenal like shaolin? You wouldn’t agree most of the training focuses on the hands? You think your a real wc guy lol.? Whatever. Good luck with your training.
Its yuanfen, not yuen fen thank you.I dont know how well you kick
or whether you are accomplished. Not really curious about that. The individual is always an important variable. But you dont know me either.Best to leave the personal stuff out.
On a wing chun list the most constructive thing we can do is share perceptions of the art and agree, disagree or mixes thereof
hopefully with civility..
Do I think that I am a wc guy? Relevance to the thread? Why the lol- impulsive? Good luck with my training? I dont depend much on luck.
While hands are often used- wing chun trains the whole structure
so that one can use whatever is necessary. Good wing chun has very good kicks in its arsenal. Yip Man was a good kicker in his time. But developing a backup arsenal and strategy are two different things.Lots of kicks in the wc arsenal…usage of them depends on strategy.
Yuenfan the immortal-replying to the personal note from mortal.
This is just another thread were I tryed to share my experiance and was ripped apart. I think people should think before they post and reread their posts. I only got one positive response. The rest are supporting each others arguments. Maybe from now on I should keep everything I learned under wraps. You make it personal with your verbal attacks. If your impression is that I am some herb you could abuse, you have another thing coming! So far its been 2 strikes one more and I’m out. I’ll leave you all to quoting each other and talking with disrespect. Martial arts haven’t taught some of you the main thing. Its called respect. I train under Sifu Jose Grados. I welcome anyone to come and see what I can do. I’m not bragging but I don’t suck. I’l suprise you.
Anthony