Complete Relaxation

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Many people focus on complete relaxation.

This in my opinion is wrong.

Wing Chun is the system of being inbetween two extremes.

We are between internal and external
between hard and soft
between ridged and flacid

A suspension bridge may be the best exaple

To ridged and it cant sway under presure or react to presure from cars, storms, earthquakes stc.

To limp and a stiff wind will make it flap all over, carrs will fall of people will die.

Just the correct amount of tension, everything moves properly and functions corectly.

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Re: Complete Relaxation

Originally posted by Mckind13
[B]Many people focus on complete relaxation.

This in my opinion is wrong.

Wing Chun is the system of being inbetween two extremes.

We are between internal and external
between hard and soft
between ridged and flacid

A suspension bridge may be the best exaple

To ridged and it cant sway under presure or react to presure from cars, storms, earthquakes stc.

To limp and a stiff wind will make it flap all over, carrs will fall of people will die.

Just the correct amount of tension, everything moves properly and functions corectly. [/B]

Your understanding of Wing Chun is correct, just not your understanding of what relaxed means. :slight_smile:

You may be confusing relaxed with flaccid. When we talk relaxed, we aren’t talking about flaccid. But if a muscle is maximally tensed, where can you go–there has to be some degree of relaxation, otherwise you’re opposing force with force instead of good structure.

Your analogy of a suspension bridge is a good metaphor for Wing Chun structure.

If there is any tenseness in your structure then you block the flow of force through your body to the ground. Wing Chun develops ligament and tendon based strength. Rigid bridges, such as the failed portion of the SF/Oakland Bay Bridge in 1989 (?) in the Loma Prieta earthquake give way when overstressed. A better design allows it to absorb the energy without collapse.

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Re: Complete Relaxation

Many people focus on complete relaxation.

Without complete relaxation as the core, the default is hard bow method. —HS

This in my opinion is wrong.

Certainly everyone is respected to have one’s view. HEre is mine --HS

Wing Chun is the system of being inbetween two extremes.

One cannot condition one’s body and mind in two extremes in the same time. --HS

We are between internal and external

There is no intermidiate between internal and external. Only either the training goes deep to internal to align every detail from breathing to every pice of body or stay at crude surface external. --HS

between hard and soft

Hard and soft are the application.
There is no state between hard and soft. state between hard and soft is stagnation. Hard and soft are two states of potential energy. To have equal potential means no flowing.

However, One who develop the core with Rou (soft, gradual) will be able to execute as hard (kang) . as it is said, the willow tree alike Rou…
while the reverse cannot be done.

By the way, soft can smooth flow of blood and breathing.. while hard can cause hypher-tension and noisy breathing which forcing breathing rate to be high but still lack of oxigen due to shallow breathing.

So, the body wants relax and flow naturally.. and not always stay in the fight and fligh state. stay in fight and fligh state too long cause disease from high blood pressure to cancer… TCM doctor will agree with that.

Now, why do we want to train an art that we might ruin our body before even we might fight?

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One thing I have heard, and a proper speaker of the lanuage can correct me, is that the Chinese term we use for ‘relax’ “Song” is also used to mean ‘to exaust’. That’s something i keep in mind when trying to relax myself, how if feels when I am totaly exausted.

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WC is an means to an end. end the fight as quickly as possible.

learning to totally relax will allow you to enter a fight and react as sponaneously as possible (pure sensitivity). when you can totally relax, you have no worries. worries slow you down.

no worries is the middle path. too lazy and you are slothful. too excited and you are chasing after things that don’t exist. find the middle path you have no worries, no doubts.

be aware! be totally sensitive! strike grasshoppah! strike!

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To be able to gain maximum tension (total neuromuscular recruitment, a requirement for maximum power), you need to to able to achieve maximum relaxation.

I think Hendrik/HSanto/Phenix said something like “only in death is total rigidity achieved”. The same is true for total relaxation, whether he likes it or not or whatever the sutras say.

Ideal performance of physical skill requires SPECIFIC tension, without unnecessary extraneous tension.

TCM doctor will agree with that.

And while I have little regard for TCM doctors (I’ve been to several who were of no help for the ailments I had), I agree with it too.

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Originally posted by anerlich
[B]

I think Hendrik/HSanto/Phenix said something like “only in death is total rigidity achieved”. The same is true for total relaxation, whether he likes it or not or whatever the sutras say.

Ideal performance of physical skill requires SPECIFIC tension, without unnecessary extraneous tension.

[/B]

This is what I say:

Hard and soft are the application.
There is no state between hard and soft. state between hard and soft is stagnation. Hard and soft are two states of potential energy. To have equal potential means no flowing.

However, One who develop the core with Rou (soft, gradual) will be able to execute as hard (kang) . as it is said, the willow tree alike Rou…
while the reverse cannot be done.

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Originally posted by OdderMensch
One thing I have heard, and a proper speaker of the lanuage can correct me, is that the Chinese term we use for ‘relax’ “Song” is also used to mean ‘to exaust’. That’s something i keep in mind when trying to relax myself, how if feels when I am totaly exausted.

“Fang Qing Song” – “relax” or “loosen grip”

No suggestions of exhaustion in this term.

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a pice of silk weightlessly levitating in the air slightly waving by the wind. This is Song Rou.

What is the best word in English for this?

But Song is not a pice of wet cloth, sag and sit dead in the bath tub.

Without this there will be no listerning of Jing… since one’s limb needs to be in this state to wrap over or cover on top or.. to pick up signal. This can’t be achieve if one train with tensing muscle…jamming the signal with one own sensitivity threshold before even pick up any signal.

the first rule, if it is not Song Rou, it can’t be WCK, because an art without the sensing capability is not WCK. and thus, WCK cannot be hard bow…

Thus, I never belive in The time, space, kiu sau… as “THE” core of superior…

see, the cultivate of Song is one of the core…
Those Time, space, kiu Sau are good to know. But it is secondary.
without battery a Celphone can’t work disregard how one likes to push the button this way or that way or upside down or…

On the other hand, anyone who travel the path of cultivating Song Rou knows that there is no short cut and can’t claim to be the shortest time learning art …

Certainly, if there is an art which is not based on or lessly based on the element of Sensing, then, Time, Space, Kiu Sau is very very important. But That is more like Hung Gar type art .

To the worst, if people thinking HUng Gar type of Time, Space, Kiu Sau… is THE IT and start to copy the Iron Wire set…
See, the name is Iron Wire. From the name we see the characteristics of the set.

What WCK is, is a Silk super strong fiber Threat not IRon wire.

And certainly everyone has the right to do what one loves to do, But then, if go hard way, the teaching will shift to NON or LESS Sensing type of art. IMHO, it is no longer WCK if one following the IRON type of art.

and the reason of lots of graping is because one’s art has less technology of Sensing and tracking efforcelessly.IMHO.

look at those Bai Jong or punch pictures in Magazine article. compare that to the old picture of say GM Yip Man… one can see right a way, if one follow the Hung Gar or hard bow type of art. It will be more Hung Gar type of body integrity struture or If one brend it wrongly, one see a dis-integration in the post… IMHO

Belive it or not lots of people disangage the upper body and forcing the weight to go down ward thinking that is Song or relax. That is not. That is broken the body into two segments and forcing or compress the weight down which will cause problem in knees. Certainly doing these feel and has a better structure then the people who don’t aware of the existance of Legs. But then, this is not Song with one pice.

YJKYM is not suppose to place weight on knees or clam the knees to death.. even the couch and knees sense … it is about trying to sense with knees and couch… not about clamping compressing or force tug … IMHO

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Hendrick

Without complete relaxation as the core, the default is hard bow method. —HS

Hi Hendrick, complete relaxation seems like the wrong term to me. I do not have the depth of knowledge in internal systems, but complete body relaxation still seems wrong. However not blocking the flow of energy seems correct, I think about it as proper tension in the body.

One cannot condition one’s body and mind in two extremes in the same time. --HS

I agree but I think there is a fluctuation between points. Sometimes, there is a necessity to be more hard or more soft. I do not think this means ridged or clinching the muscles etc. You posted that if we stop breathing or tense to much that that was not proper nature (or something like that). I think this is a good example of keeping balance.

There is no intermediate between internal and external. Only either the training goes deep to internal to align every detail from breathing to every piece of body or stay at crude surface external. --HS

Good point, alignment is very important, but I think that the idea of internal can often be misused. Internal alignment. use of internal structure, we should all cultivate this, but I think many people train the soft internal idea of just relaxing and not using intension.

Alignment, flow, and intension?

Hard and soft are the application.
There is no state between hard and soft. state between hard and soft is stagnation. Hard and soft are two states of potential energy. To have equal potential means no flowing.
I think it is stagnant if it is purely neutral but not if it is between. Between can be allot hard and a little soft or a allot soft and a little hard. Degrees not binary.

By the way, soft can smooth flow of blood and breathing.. while hard can cause hyper-tension and noisy breathing which forcing breathing rate to be high but still lack of oxygen due to shallow breathing. - HS

I agree Hendrick. When we loose our center or get to far away from our middle then we breath hard, get tight in our shoulders etc. Relaxation is important but I think the idea of complete relaxation is off the mark at least in the way allot of people use it.

So, the body wants relax and flow naturally.. and not always stay in the fight and flight state. stay in fight and flight state too long cause disease from high blood pressure to cancer… TCM doctor will agree with that. - HS

Again Hendrick I agree but when I said completely relaxed I only meant it in the way others are using it. Smooth flow and not relying on muscle is the correct way. But sometimes I must turn my muscles on a little more or a little less, sometimes I make my arm more tense or less. We can never train one extreme all the time can we? If I am aware and conscious of how I move and act and can keep my proper balance of being relaxed and being slightly tense (not ridged) then I think this is a better image. What do you think?

David

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(HS Wrote )a piece of silk weightlessly levitating in the air slightly waving by the wind. This is Song Rou.

What is the best word in English for this?

But Song is not a piece of wet cloth, sag and sit dead in the bath tub.

Thanks Hendrick.

The piece of silk needs the wind to levitate in the wind.
Our bridge needs that same wind (intension?) to make it work, sensitivity is needed, flow is needed, the term complete relaxation still seems like the wrong word to me. After reading some of the posts I am glad that people use the word better then they way others that I have met have used it.

David

12

McKind

Until you have a proper understanding of the internal arts its inefficient of you to slate complete relaxation. Any Internal art requires complete relaxtion inorder not to create blocks in the energy pathway from the foot to the attacking limb/part of the body, this is known as whole body force. Fair, enough if Wing Chun doesn’t follow this method then I do believe that it isn’t an internal art, butif it does then relaxation is intergral to its efficacy as a martial art.

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Song Rou = Loose Meat

Rou Song = Shredded Meat

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be careful with the kind of meat you eat! :smiley:

here it is, medium rare.

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Smooth flow and not relying on muscle is the correct way. But sometimes I must turn my muscles on a little more or a little less, sometimes I make my arm more tense or less. We can never train one extreme all the time can we? If I am aware and conscious of how I move and act and can keep my proper balance of being relaxed and being slightly tense (not ridged) then I think this is a better image. What do you think?

Hi Dave,

Why do you have to turn your muscles on a bit more? If we look at this from a logical point of view; muscles are used more when we feel we want to stop something in its tracks and move it away from where we are, out of out line of fire! Which makes sense on a level.

My understanding is that due to the fact that your muscle is not relaxed properly in the first place, this results in holding the force that your opponent is giving you. When your muscle reaches its limit (at a certain level of tension for holding that force) then your muscle will have to work harder, and harder to continue to stop that force from affecting your body as the pressure increases. You can’t effectively respond anymore to you opponent, as well as optimally as you would if you were not under that pressure in the first place.
How to avoid that pressure is by allowing that force to flow through that muscle. Relaxing the muscle will allow the force to pass through it. Proper structure supports your body so you can relax completely!
I think confidence plays a big part in this. Confidence to receive the force, and to listen to which direction it going in…then to respond once we are receiving the correct information. If you tense you cant really hear what your opponents force is saying. Without the proper information you’re only guessing what to do next. Consistency in dealing with force optimally will be sporadic if your going on guess work.

My 2 cents :slight_smile:

We can never train one extreme all the time can we?

Why not? Its our own choice.

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Originally posted by yylee
[B]be careful with the kind of meat you eat! :smiley:

here it is, medium rare. [/B]

Extend the arms, Not leaning forward or backward, here on wave with the wind.

( Cang Kai Suang Sou, Pu Yee Pu Khao, Choong Cheh Sui Feng Pieo..)

If one is Song enough then one should be able to feel the body slight’s waving due to breathing.
Otherwise, still, it is too tense… an it is hard bow.

The art of Spiderman is different to the art of Incredible Hug.

it is not about tension it is about how fine one can control the level of tension.

without totally loose up and let go one will never “heard” how silence a CD music can be-- the dynamic range – compare with the old tape deck which can go down to -20 db only. Now CD is -80db or more… Nakamichi 1000 can arive to -60db at 1978. Thus is it as superior Tape Deck.

So the sound of silence of CD and 1970 tape deck and today’s top of the line tape deck are still different. One is digital one is analog. Hahahaha. So is WCK digital or analog?

watch out to get SARS if you eat the wrong meat!:smiley:

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Originally posted by yylee
[B]be careful with the kind of meat you eat! :smiley:

here it is, medium rare. [/B]

Wo bu chuo, dan shi bu tai wen rou! LOL

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Originally posted by Alpha Dog
[B]

Wo bu chuo, dan shi bu tai wen rou! LOL [/B]

Dong Fang Bu Bai. (Dung fong bat baai) … Kui Fa Bao Dien… Rou Cing Seh Sui.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0105655

The orginal and olderst WCK from Ming Dynasty.
The ultimate VISION.
The weapon is needle.
When man turn into Woman… ultimate WCK by Dung fong bat baai .

Completely soft and femanien is the key to un lock the ultimate.
:cool::smiley:

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S.Teebas

If my muscles are off then my arms lay limp at my side. Even then muscles have some tension in them.

Relaxed and completely relaxed is what I am having trouble with.

If you try to use complete relaxation in the body it seems to me to be incorect phrasing.

Staying relaxed in the presence of an attack is a mental atribute that translates into relaxed body. Being conciously relaxed may seem better.

Anyway

David

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Originally posted by Phenix
The art of Spiderman is different to the art of Incredible Hug.

:smiley:

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