Combat is for others. Health is for yourself. The training can be “opposite”. In XingYi 5 elements training, if you train:
combat, you punch out fast, concentrate on exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
health, you punch out slow, concentrate on inhale when you pull your punch back, and your body push your hand.
Also trying to argue whether sparring (you may get hit on your head) or heavy bag training (you may hurt your fist) will be good for healh can be endless debating. It’s better to separate both in the same discussion. What’s your opinion on this?
To cultivate Kung Fu within one self, time is given to all aspects of the body and mind.
If you can break an arm, a full understanding would include how to mend it.
Quality of life when in the autumn years is a good thing and within martial arts there are regimens that promote this.
to be a Kung Fu practitioner, it is necessary to develop the full scope throughout your lifetime. Otherwise, it is imbalance to practice only how to fight. That is only one limb of Kung Fu.
It’s the limb that draws people in, but it is the other stuff that keeps them in and keeps them supple and alert into their old age.
There is a time for everything. A young man cannot be an old man and cannot have the experiences or needs of an old man. the same is true the other way round, the old man doesn’t have the power and strength of the young man, and so must use what power and strength he does have in a more efficient and refined way. The youth can charge and try again, the old man must be correct and for him, he has had the time to practice to create that correctness.
Both are required of the martial artist who wants Kung Fu.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1173869]In the old days before guns, you might do it for combat, but people now in general society do it for self improvement and fun or sport.
Cheers[/QUOTE]
Lets be honest, empty hand combat was ALWAYS in 2nd place to weapons.
Empty handed MA was always a suplimentary training method ( except perhaps in Okinawa when weapons were prohibited and even then the priority was on “improvised weapons over empty hands) and in that regard, nothing has changed.
The fact that one COULD get a “health benefit” was a bonus ( one that at times was ignored when the need for more intense training methods was required).
There are MANY different and arguably better ways to get “healthy” than MA.
I don’t know of ANYONE that looked at a MA where people were fighting and though " I’d like to do that just for the healthy aspect of it”.
Though, of course, it does become a factor later on.
But lets not delude ourselves as to WHY the vast majority got into MA.
[QUOTE=bawang;1173876]my most important reason for training is to preserve traditional culture and way of thinking. combat and health come second.[/QUOTE]
And what is the tradition and culture of a MA if not combat?
Was any MA developed for any reason other than combat?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1173878]And what is the tradition and culture of a MA if not combat?
[/QUOTE]
to not fear death, patriotism and revolutionary ideals
if chinese martial art is number one focused on combat, we would not have forms. and indeed there are rare styles that do not use forms. but the majority tradition put combat second ever since firearms made cold arms obsolete.
imo if you focus is health and you are not interested in combat or self defense, then the best route to go is qigong/yoga/meditation/healthy diet/ etc. you never even have to punch or kick to be healthy.
[QUOTE=bawang;1173879]to not fear death, patriotism and revolutionary ideals
if chinese martial art is number one focused on combat, we would not have forms. and indeed there are rare styles that do not use forms. but the majority tradition put combat second ever since firearms made cold arms obsolete.[/QUOTE]
I agree that at one point the combat effectivness was de-prioritized.
Every MA system has forms of some sort but I know what you mean.
I think itis perhaps more correct to state that WHEN forms became the core of the MA system, that was when MA started being LESS about combat or vice-versa ( not that it matters that much).
well for my personal reasons, i feel modernization and dehumanization is negatively impacting chinese society, so to me preserving the mindset is more important than fighting. learning to fight isnt hard in modern times, especially with supplements, scientific information on the human body, and “gear”. but learning to be a man of honor is hard in china these days.
once the spirit of a people is lost, it is gone forever. no matter how hard the renaissance martial art guys try, they can never become a real viking or a hoplite, or a swiss mercenary, or a hungarian archer.
[QUOTE=bawang;1173884]well for my personal reasons, i feel modernization and dehumanization is negatively impacting chinese society, so to me preserving the mindset is more important than fighting. learning to fight isnt hard in modern times, especially with supplements, scientific information on the human body, and “gear”. but learning to be a man of honor is hard in china these days.
once the spirit of a people is lost, it is gone forever. no matter how hard the renaissance martial art guys try, they can never become a real viking or a hoplite, or a swiss mercenary, or a hungarian archer.[/QUOTE]
I won’t argue about how important the spirit it.
Though I take issues with your “examples” LOL !
[QUOTE=Lucas;1173881]imo if you focus is health and you are not interested in combat or self defense, then the best route to go is qigong/yoga/meditation/healthy diet/ etc. you never even have to punch or kick to be healthy.[/QUOTE]
When I began MA, and most of my training life, it was strictly for combat/self-defense. I never, ever thought about health/fitness until several years into my training. Even then, I incorporated lots of supplementary training, such as running, ST, etc. Nowadays I do it mostly because I love doing it.
OTOH, if someone wants to do MA with an emphasis on their health, I see nothing wrong about it. Maybe they don’t want to do qigong or yoga, etc. It wouldn’t be my first choice, but everyone is different.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1173874]Lets be honest, empty hand combat was ALWAYS in 2nd place to weapons.
Empty handed MA was always a suplimentary training method ( except perhaps in Okinawa when weapons were prohibited and even then the priority was on “improvised weapons over empty hands) and in that regard, nothing has changed.
The fact that one COULD get a “health benefit” was a bonus ( one that at times was ignored when the need for more intense training methods was required).
There are MANY different and arguably better ways to get “healthy” than MA.
I don’t know of ANYONE that looked at a MA where people were fighting and though " I’d like to do that just for the healthy aspect of it”.
Though, of course, it does become a factor later on.
But lets not delude ourselves as to WHY the vast majority got into MA.[/QUOTE]
I did not use the word health, but I think health comes from any exercise anyway that does not cause injury.
If you are constantly injuring yourself you are stupid, IMO.
Before guns you needed to get close to someone to cause injury usually, unless you were throwing something or shooting arrows, but at least you could see them before hand. A sword or knife is just an extension of your hands.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1173887]I won’t argue about how important the spirit it.
Though I take issues with your “examples” LOL ![/QUOTE]
well man, how many of those western martial art “revivalists” do you think would earnestly kneel before a halberd praying to mary, or kiss the cross of the sword? not as roleplaying, acting, but being?
[QUOTE=bawang;1173897]well man, how many of those western martial art “revivalists” do you think would earnestly kneel before a halberd praying to mary, or kiss the cross of the sword? not as roleplaying, acting, but being?[/QUOTE]
None of course.
People like the fantasy world BECAUSE it is fantasy.
As we know, the real world was/is far less “glamorous”.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1173888]When I began MA, and most of my training life, it was strictly for combat/self-defense. I never, ever thought about health/fitness until several years into my training. Even then, I incorporated lots of supplementary training, such as running, ST, etc. Nowadays I do it mostly because I love doing it.
OTOH, if someone wants to do MA with an emphasis on their health, I see nothing wrong about it. Maybe they don’t want to do qigong or yoga, etc. It wouldn’t be my first choice, but everyone is different.[/QUOTE]
Lets take this a little further though, shall we?
If a person ONLY wants health benefits, how does one “justify” the violence inherent in EVERY MA.
I mean, from day one you are learning to INFLICT physical harm on another human being.
That is still the core of every MA that closes a hand into a fist and train to drive the fist into someone’s face.
Right?
