Claims about MMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
41

[QUOTE=Ben Gash;775072]Technically only latin countries use Cilantro, in Europe and Asia we use Coriander, a virtually identical yet geneticalyy different herb.[/QUOTE]Pervert! I don’t know anyone in my hyuuge circle of hubris eating friends who use coriander! Parsley? Yes. Honey? Occasionally. Paprika? Sometimes. Capers/Olives? Optional. Coarse black pepper? Essential…

but coriander? Save that for your Persian Aubergine Dip.

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;775076]I’m sure if you looked hard enough in any style you could come up with a shoulder strike here or there.[/QUOTE]And you don’t have to look very hard in many styles either:

there are obvious shoulder strikes in

kendo
wing chun
aikido/jutsu
sumo
wrestling
JJJ
capoeira

to mention but a few that I’ve seen/been taught first hand or have done myself.

I know this was a small part of the argument but it seems daft to claim any tech as exclusively TCMA. On the contrary I would say that almost every tech has a mirror somewhere else in the world and there is no reason to be ashamed of CMA techs for being the same.

Conversely, I do agree that the argument that ‘if it worked it’d be in MMA’ is daft. There are some techs that will come back into fashion, or have come back into fashion, as both standing and ground games evolve, and depending as always on the practitioner and his opponent. It’s just that where that tech comes from is usually irrelevant to the MMAist as long as it works, and only relevant to the TCMAist who is worried about seeming legitimacy.

I very rarely defend wing chun or aikido, despite them being laughing stocks of MMAists and TCMAists alike (a point of commonality? Unite under WC! Unite under Hakama! :smiley: ) because I don’t care about how others see them. Aspects of them work and have worked very well for me in a variety of settings and that’s all I care about… apart from personally making the most out of my training time.

42

$20 says it never happens (or never gets taped I and people “say” it happens)

the internet makes everyone very confident, but reality is sparring isn’t “easy”. Its very easy to get the crap beat out of you.. just come watch me :smiley:

allot of TMA lack the skills to teach things like Timing, strategy, and fear/confidence training, distance, ect…

without these skills good luck… it just doesn’t happen by watching UFC and youtube.

43

Well the difference between you and Fu pow, as I am reading it, that you have your eyes open to what is effective and what isn’t. Victor Belfort used some chain punch that could be considered very Wing Chunish to KTFO someone out.

Plus, hell, I love doing old weapons sets but I an not under the delusion that I can go be ****ing General Kwan. If you say you love doing Martial arts for the pure aesthetic pleasure of doing forms then so be it. Who am I to say anything about a person’s hobbies? If you say **** my Kung fu works on multiple attackers armed with flaming *****s, I am gonna call BS. No one can beat more that two flaming *****s at one time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StWbM1OOl74 (starts at min 1:06)

44

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775196]
Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn’t be useful, actually it would be no different then a well place punch.[/QUOTE]

By that logic a well placed punch is not useful.

Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Have you seen National Geographic’s Fight Science special? I’m not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.

National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)

Power generation used in the strike may or may not be useful. The mechanics of throwing a strong punch in different than what I have seen being used on objects. The materials that are broken are not as pliable or yielding as the human body. A majority of the time, especially on the non-trick breaks, the person is injured. Plus I think the padding of the gloves would stop alot of the Iron Palmers skills or so I have been told:rolleyes:

The technique I had in mind was a palm strike.

Keith Hackney floored a 600lb Emmanuel Yarborough at UFC 3. His technique was not as smooth as the one in the video above (some have described it as a flailing b*tch slap) but it landed with alot of force.

I’m not saying that the technique would take the place of a good punch but if done properly may prove effective. I doubt that the MMA glove would interfere with the power of a palm strike.

The fight was odd… it just seemed that Fryk was baffled as what to do with Cung Lee. Like the announcer said " He is picking him apart at will." Fryk was just throwing a few low kicks and some half hearted punches. It looked like Fryk was sparring with him and not fighting him but then again Cung lee hits hard, maybe Cung took his heart or something.

Cung was throwing some deadly kicks from mid range which made it very difficult for Fryklund to get inside. He tried closing the distance several times with Superman/Cobra punches and managed a few flurries with Cung against the cage late in the fight, but he did seem a bit puzzled throughout the fight plus, though he tried to hide it the body blows were agonizing.

I think he should have tried commiting to his takedowns. He went for atleast 2 high shoots that Cung easily evaded. I’ve heard that he lost focus of the gameplan his corner directed him to pursue.

By the by, I am not a Fryk fan but he did better in Anderson Silva vs Tony Fryklund match. Even though he got knocked out by a reverse elbow fought more than he did against Cung Lee.

Fryklund got beat in the fight standing as well, but he seemed to fight pretty actively from the clinch. He did alot better than Rich Franklin did against Anderson Silva in the same situation.

It was just a weird one sided fight. Oh and FYI I am soooo a Cung Lee fan, I LOVE his throws.

He has excellent throws though I doubt we will see much of them in his MMA fights since he aims to keep the fights standing. He performed a beautiful hip toss against Brian Warren in their MMA match.

That may be his counter to someone who forces the clinch, looking for a takedown. If he is going to go to the ground it is better he ends up on top. Thats the idea he seemed to be going with.

45

[QUOTE=SevenStar;775194]because you guys aren’t really competing mma - not enough to count it as part of mainstream mma curriculum. THAT is why you don’t see chinese styles. Why in the hell would you throw them into a list of mma styles when only .001% of mma competitors train cma?[/quote]

Fair enough.

mma is also a format. mma = striking and grappling. mma = the ruleset used for these striking and grappling venues. mma is a compilation of styles, but is not itself a style.

Well, which is it? MMA seems to skate out of any discussion/criticism because it seems to defy definition. It can mean anything to anyone at any time so apparently can’t really say anything about it all…for or against. It becomes a meaningless term.

46

[QUOTE=SevenStar;775198]possibly. But mma guys are a show me group. Until The cma world competes mma and consistently demonstrates said uniqueness with effectiveness, the mma world will not even poot in tcma’s direction. However, I am curious. What unique things are you referring to? we talked about the “superman punch”, which I mentioned has been in muay thai. In yet another thread, the spinning back and crescent were brought up - and they both exist in muay thai as well.

I’m not saying there is nothing unique to cma, however. Please, show it to us - or at least explain it.[/QUOTE]

When I have tried to explain I have met with:

a) MMA already has that.

b) It useless or MMA would already have that.

FP

47

[QUOTE=SevenStar;775202]1. show them to us.
2. remember that combat sport styles came from somewhere - generally combat oriented styles. For sport purposes, techniques were removed for various reasons - some because they were malicious in nature and would not mesh with a competitive environment, others because they simply did not work consistently in the the ring.

resistance? we don’t resist it, YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW IT TO US. MMA thrives on evolution. I guarantee you if you can show the mma crowd something that WORKS CONSISTENTLY, not just some technique that you say you have never seen in mma, then you will see mma guys start to adapt it. mma does not have a tornado kick, but until you start seeing people KOed by them in a fairly regular basis, they won’t bother trying to learn it. Why should they? they already have a proven format that works. When that format is compromised by something, that is when they adapt and evolve.[/QUOTE]

Its not just techniques. Its the way that the techniques are executed. Its a qualitative difference. In this respect the “internal” arts have something unique to offer.

I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I’m talking about, but honestly I’m not. I’ve only seriously delved into my Taiji in the last year having practiced it for 10 +. I haven’t developed those qualities to the level to be able to demonstrate them consistently but I am beginning to and the whole approach is different.

When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand “short energy” in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.

It seems mystical but its not. I think all of this can be applied in any format. Its unique and different but again it is a qualitative difference and hard for me to quantify for you.

I’m not talking about flashy techniques, I’m not talking about forms, I’m talking about different Jings or skill/energy. Different things that you can do with your body that your opponent is not going to expect.

Its very practical and down to earth. It conserves energy. That’s why I’m not understanding the resistance to it. Maybe its too hard to learn?

FP

48

You’re on some seriously thin ice Fu Pow, not to mention suffering from selective memory loss :rolleyes: You’ve been a complete a$$ the past few weeks, what’s up? Move stressful?
I fought Sanda and sub wrestling (and I’m thinking about returning to San Da next year), my contemporaries fight/fought Kuoshu and my juniors fight Kyokushin, how much more of a fighting club do you want?
Techniques working? Ross shows Sow Chui with the shoulder on one of his DVDs (Punching and Clinching or Combat Sports Camp vol2, I can’t remember), and Biu Ma as a hip and/or shoulder strike is done by pretty much EVERY competitive Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo and wrestling guy on the planet :rolleyes:

49

[QUOTE=Ben Gash;775285]You’re on some seriously thin ice Fu Pow, not to mention suffering from selective memory loss :rolleyes: You’ve been a complete a$$ the past few weeks, what’s up? Move stressful?[/quote]

You’re the one that starts insulting me and I’m the ass. Ok, whatever.

I fought Sanda and sub wrestling (and I’m thinking about returning to San Da next year), my contemporaries fight/fought Kuoshu and my juniors fight Kyokushin, how much more of a fighting club do you want?

Great.

Techniques working? Ross shows Sow Chui with the shoulder on one of his DVDs (Punching and Clinching or Combat Sports Camp vol2, I can’t remember), and Biu Ma as a hip and/or shoulder strike is done by pretty much EVERY competitive Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo and wrestling guy on the planet :rolleyes:

Ok let’s see video, since that seems to be the gold standard here. We’re probably not even talking about the same thing.

FP

50

Nice Taiji shoulder stroke at 00:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXOmYo6fE&mode=related&search=

51

I started throwing insults???:confused::confused::confused:
See, sign of stress, feeling attacked and insulted by anyone disagreeing with you.
I disagreed with technical points you’ve made, you started swearing, making allusions about my teacher and the quality of my kung fu, and accusing me of training unrealistic techniques :rolleyes:

52

[QUOTE=gwa sow;775059]this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.[/QUOTE]

yeah well we’ll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

53

[QUOTE=golden arhat;775298]yeah well we’ll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself[/QUOTE]

I think he might have been being sarcastic. n00854180t performs the Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique on Golden Arhat.

Seriously though, it seems to me that if CMA is such pointless tripe, perhaps people shouldn’t be frequenting the Kung Fu Magazine forums? (And while I realize it’s not only CMA, and this is the MMA forum, it is primarily CMA).

Bleh! Annoying thread.

54

[QUOTE=MysticNinjaJay;775277]

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775196]Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn’t be useful…Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.[/QUOTE]

Have you seen National Geographic’s Fight Science special? I’m not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.

National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)[/QUOTE]

Here is an alternate link to the Dim mak, with the sound in synch. Don’t ask me why it has crappy alternative commentary. :confused:

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak

55

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwa sow
this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.

yeah well we’ll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

yea, like i run into him all the time
dude that was a joke. just like this whole thing is, whatever babble he’s preaching about. whatever he says about tai chi can be found in choy lay fut if he could have looked into it better.

56

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;775282]
I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I’m talking about, but honestly I’m not. I’ve only seriously delved into my Taiji in the last year having practiced it for 10 +. I haven’t developed those qualities to the level to be able to demonstrate them consistently but I am beginning to and the whole approach is different.

When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand “short energy” in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.[/QUOTE]

You’ve been doing this stuff for 10+ years, with the last year done quite seriously and you still can’t make it work consistently?

Somebody has been drinking too much of the Kool-Aide.

57

By that logic a well placed punch is not useful.

What I was trying get at, not successfully, is that punching power and iron palm striking power = same

Mystic

Have you seen National Geographic’s Fight Science special? I’m not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.
National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training
National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)

I hate to burst your bubble mystic but that is far from actual scientific testing. It has a sensational bend to it.

First off, they are comparing the blows of a striker to that of an individual using an object to strike the dummy. Do these individuals know how to properly generate power similar to the ninja dude? Maybe they should of had someone with a baseball background swing the bat? What would that study have been like if the hammer fisting dude hit and then a boxer followed suit striking the dummy in the chest. Or better yet, field test the technique by having the ninja strike the dummy while suspended so that it swayed. It is easy to damage a person when they are at rest and do not move. That is the problem with a lot of the TCMA techniques. They only work under the most optimal conditions and perfectly set up settings. You hit a person with a hammer fist like that and they are one gone move, sway, twist or fold their body to absorb impact. That Fajing type energy can be produced by anyone. Teach it it a stronger person and the output damage is greater but try to apply it in an actual fight and the damage output usually gets negated.

Now if they have several test parameters like having the dim mak guy hit with a certain blow, then a regular person copy that blow, then a boxer, and finally a strong man that knew how to hit. Once all of these people have been gauge, you could put the strikes into proper contexts. 

 The things with the plum blossom type post could easily get the same result if you tested someone who does high wire training, a Pakour runner, high rise steel beam welder or even a balance beam gymnast.

As for the brick breakers, It is a very cool feat but certain things in that study is not mentioned nor taken into account.

  1. First, all the power is generated in a downward moment and full body weight behind it. They would be unable to generate the same power throwing a vertical punch.

  2. Like they said, it is a one shot deal that has to be set up perfectly

  3. I didn’t hear them discuss the structural design importance of the spacers.

  4. There are Power hour guys that do the same thing these breakers do and they are untrained but **** me they do it with FAITH power.

  5. Well, to answer question MMA wise, it is not possible to generate that kind of power in a downward motion when a resisting opponent is underneath you unless they are motionless. The breaker’s muscle stabilizer, if that is what they are called, are in a constant state of flux. They are also on their knees which limits their mechanical power generation because they are unable to generate the torque needed from foot>ankle>hips ect ect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmMyHV-LmA

Can deliver a lot of ****ing power. I have seen people get flashed knocked out with an open hand palm to the jaw. But the power generated by breakers downward strike is completely different from what you are now suggesting.

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP. That has to do with the concussive force bouncing a person’s head of the mat. They have all been flash knock outs. But don’t take my word for any of this stuff, go out and test it for yourself.

The effectiveness of the palm has to now be weighed vs the punch. The only problem I see using the palm more often than the punch would be possible stress damage over time. the way they both absorb and redistribute stress impact. But like the videos, a real scientific inquiry would be the only way to test that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIPWWqvpKb4 (Keith Hackney fight)

He did a palm heel strike to Yarr and caused a flash ko or just dizzied him.

I’m not saying that the technique would take the place of a good punch but if done properly may prove effective. I doubt that the MMA glove would interfere with the power of a palm strike.

I can agree with you that it could be effective but as far as the padding goes you may be right of course that is depending on how you strike using the palm. IF you do a dam willow palm I would say no way.

58

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;775291]Nice Taiji shoulder stroke at 00:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXOmYo6fE&mode=related&search=[/QUOTE]

That demo is with a partner who is not only complying, but also jumping back.

LOL @ that “shoulder strike”. Want to learn how to shoulder strike and be about 10 times as effective as the junk shown on that clip? Just play a year or two of football.

59

[QUOTE=Notintheface;775380]

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP. That has to do with the concussive force bouncing a person’s head of the mat. They have all been flash knock outs. But don’t take my word for any of this stuff, go out and test it for yourself. [/QUOTE]

I have seen a MMA fighter get KO’ed with a palm strike.

That being said, closed fist does much more damage than open palm.

60

Most of the people I know that train the palm strike, don’t do it enough compared to the fist strike, to make it more effective.

Fists cause more superficial damage than the palm, though concussive force would be greater IF the person trained the the palm like the do the fist.
Unfortunatly, as pancrase showed us, most end up “*****slapping” the palm and not really “punching with the palm”.

As for breaks, you really need to do them as close to the “real thing” as you can.
In case of a downward strike, you need to strike an unsupported brick.
In case of a “standing” strike, you need to strike a slab or brick standing by its own inertia.