Thanks for all of the input on this thread. Good discussion without deterioration into squabbling, bickering, and the like. Appreciated.
The two main things I noticed between Buk Sing and the Lee Koon Hung line forms that prompted my research was the extensive emphasis on the use of the Charp Choy and the extended reach, waist twisting, and “Northern” flavor of the forms themselves. I think the extensive use of the Charp Choy as compared with other branches really got me to thinking about the possible cross-pollination that is likely to have occurred between the two lines.
I agree, everyone has their own flavor to playing the forms. This is as it should be. Stylistic differences are another matter altogether, however. The stylistic differences, to some degree, are what make Buk Sing, Buk Sing, Hung Sing, Hung Sing, and so-on. It’s the individual interpretation within these stylistic differences that ultimately make my Choy Lay Fut, my Choy Lay Fut, and your Choy Lay Fut, your Choy Lay Fut. That’s where the flavor comes into the mix.
Good discussion and lots of insight here.
Yep that is where I thought some influence it noticable through the chop choy.
We have a form called Fu Pow Kuen, that I always thought had a bit of a buk sing flavor to it but I don’t think it is a buk sing set persay.
There is a Fu Pow connection from Jow Gar to Buk Sing through Kong On (Kong Hing’s father) but I have seen some versions and it is much different from ours.
It’s been said that Lee Koon Hung’s Sifu Poon Dik (I know, a point of contention for some) may have had some interaction with Tarm Sarm. I cannot comment on this, although I find the possibility interesting.
If this is true, it could account for some of the cross-pollination and apparent similarities between the two lines.
It is funny I once asked Poon Sing if we had some connection to buk sing and he was pretty adament about saying we didn’t and mentioned our connection with Chan Koon Pak (my cantonese wasn’t that good at the time).
It really much contention with who sifu’s sifu was. Poon Dik was technically his ssifu but he passed away when sifu was quite young. Sifu then learned from of his sihings Leung Sai, Chow Bing and Poon Sing and then later in life he followed his Sisuk, So Kam Fook. He also interacted with another sisuk/sibaak, Leung Siu Keung, who was Leung Kwai’s nephew.
Attn: Yao Sing…you need to clear some space in your PM box, I couldn’t respond becuase it is full.
CLFNole…That is interesting, for sure.
Personally (and again this is my personal opinion only) I think the bulk of the influence across lines came a little later with Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong and their association with Dave and Vince Lacey. There likewise could have been some exchange between Poon Sing and Kong Hing considering that they were close friends and associates. Not that I doubt that there was influence prior to that time, as I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Poon Dik/Tarm Sarm story is true (planting the proverbial seed of cross-pollination, if you will. Wow, I just read that…lol).
I’m almost convinced that Dave Lacey, for instance, learned the Iron Arrow from either Lee Koon Hung or Tat Mau Wong and modified it to suit his own personal taste and experience. Now, before I start upsetting people with that statement, let me clarify that this is my personal opinion only and I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone by making such a statement. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both Dave and Vince Lacey, as well as GM Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong.
CLFNole…I’m beginning to see that you’re to Lee Koon Hung Choy Lay Fut what HSKWarrior is to Hung Sing! (I mean that in only the best possible way…lol.)
I know Sifu (LKH) and Sifu Dave Lacey interacted (I have some old pictures) and it was pretty common to exchange material. In my early training years I brought in a magazine with Sifu Lacey in it speaking about buk sing and Sifu mentioned he showed him Tuet Jin. I have seen a variety of clips of Sifu Lacey perform and a few times I saw part of the form mixed in with his other techniques so I figured that was the part he liked and incorporated into his style.
I don’t think Tat Wong plays into it at all.
Duly noted.
Thanks for all of the Lee Koon Hung line information, BTW.
No problem…by the way what is your buk sing lineage? If you don’t mind me asking.
Not at all:)
Mine comes from William Lee who was originally from Hong Kong. Honestly, lineage wasn’t often discussed, so I’m not sure from whom he may have learned. His English was very poor and I didn’t press the issue. What mattered to me was that he was far and above one of the fastest, strongest, and most powerful fighters I have ever met. He had the skill to back up his words and I wanted that skill. I didn’t even know until I had been with him for awhile that what he taught was Choy Lay Fut. He claimed Buk Sing, always talking about Tarm Sarm’s exploits; at least from the little that I was able to understand. He did mention Kong On and his son Kong Hing whom he referred to as “the fighting Kongs” but again, I honestly only ever understood a fraction of what he said to me. His point was often made by bruising my chest with Charp Choys, and I learned early on it was better not to ask a lot of unnecessary questions.
I studied with Lee Sifu for almost 3 years until he moved back to Hong Kong due to an issue with his work visa. He told me he was leaving, and the next week when I came into work, he was gone. He did leave me a set of butterfly knives and a heavily-worn wallbag which are now my prized possessions.
That about sums it up:)
exchanges happen but every choy lay fut school does the chop choi with a panther fist. I don’t think emphasis on the chop choi/panther fist means buk sing influence. we have a form called hon jerng lin wan kuen that is almot entirely different types of chop chois delivered continuously and have no buk sing influence. all choy lay fut schools have these techniques.
exchanges happen but every choy lay fut school does the chop choi with a panther fist. I don’t think emphasis on the chop choi/panther fist means buk sing influence.
In my honest opinion, i believe it was indeed Tam Sam who inspired the use and research into the different usages of the chop Choy with panther fist. Original/OLD fut san hung sing kuen (CLF) did our chop choys with solid fists. a few fut san hung sing lineages still do till this day.
all choy lay fut schools have these techniques.
true. but its about the usage and personal experience the old masters based their usages on.
[QUOTE=Shaolindynasty;1161530]exchanges happen but every choy lay fut school does the chop choi with a panther fist.[/QUOTE]
Not every Choy Lay Fut school does the charp choy with a panther fist. In fact, many Choy Lay Fut schools execute the Charp Choy with a closed fist as opposed to a panther fist.
Not trying to be argumentative, but Tarm Sarm developed the panther fist Charp Choy into a speciality and sort-of trademark of the Buk Sing school.
The last two posts-I was going to say that, but I figured this Hung-Gar guy who did a little CLF should shut up and let the CLF guys go for it. (who does this guy think he is, anyway?)
Being good at a technique and inventing it are 2 different things.
The the chop choi and it’s panther fist variation were known before buk sing. maybe he liked that technique and chose to emphasize it more than othe clf practitioners but he did not invent it.
The chop choi and panther fist are not even unique to choy lay fut
Being good at a technique and inventing it are 2 different things.
The the chop choi and it’s panther fist variation were known before buk sing. maybe he liked that technique and chose to emphasize it more than othe clf practitioners but he did not invent it.
The chop choi and panther fist are not even unique to choy lay fut
Even the CHAN family has admitted that it was TAM SAM who popularized the panther fisted Chop Choy. The slogan “EXTRA INCH EXTRA POWER” didn’t come from chan heung, or jeung hung sing. it was TAM SAM. No one said he invented it, as it most likely was around prior to Chan Heung.
CLFNole - I made some room, PM away. Thanks.
it most likely was around prior to Chan Heung
ok, then we agree. but that reason is why I don’t think anyone should assume buk sing influence because someone does panther/leopard fist techniques.
I’m not trying to take anything away from anyone I respect all choy lay fut practitioners as brothers
ok, then we agree. but that reason is why I don’t think anyone should assume buk sing influence because someone does panther/leopard fist techniques.
I completely understand your POV…but thats just it. YOU don’t think …
However, the elders of CLF from the 3 major branches…the one’s who were alot closer to the times than any of us here have said tam sam is responsible for taking the usage of the panther fist in all of CLF to the next level. others followed in his footsteps.
your opinion is getting heard, it just doesn’t happen to be the truth to the situation.
This isn’t a right or wrong thing. I think SD was referring to my comment about my thoughts of a buk sing influence in our CLF. This was my opinion based on my time in CLF and watching various branches and what not. I noticed many lines utilized closed fist punches whereas our sets do not have any closed fist punches.
Having watched buk sing and their extensive use of the panther fist I saw this as a possible influence. Again just my opinion and not speaking for any other branch. I have seen a good deal of Chan Wing Fat/Chen Yong Fa’s group from Australia and our forms stem from theirs. That being said they have a lot of closed fist punches so in my mind ours having exclusively panther fist punches made me believe the influence came elsewhere.
completely understand your POV…but thats just it. YOU don’t think …
However, the elders of CLF from the 3 major branches…the one’s who were alot closer to the times than any of us here have said tam sam is responsible for taking the usage of the panther fist in all of CLF to the next level. others followed in his footsteps.
your opinion is getting heard, it just doesn’t happen to be the truth to the situation.
we use panther fist chop chois and no buk sing influence here. so whatever.
btw, the disrespect isn’t required *******