Gee, maybe there just might be two “Lung Gee’s”…and one of them, of whom the Canadian reference was made, is still alive and doing quite well. Maybe…just maybe.
Shaolin_Knight
True the Bak Sing style incorporated more northern element such as kicks, but it was not exclusive to that. Actually it was the Iron Palm techniques that were adopted into the system that held more notariety for the the Bak Sing style. As for Lun Tse Hsiang, I would be pretty sure he is the same person whom I have been told by Si-Fu Vince Lacey is still alive, and was supposed to be at the world Choy Lay Fut Reunion held last month in Singapore.
Nope
Lun Tse and Lung Tse_Cheung
Sifu Vince could have seen Lun Tse (or Gia as a branch of a tree), but if he saw Lung (or Loong as a Dragon) Tse (Tse as a child) Cheung then he would have been drunk or saw a ghost, both are also possible, given he is an Auzzie.
Joseph 
Joseph
G’Day Mate!
Well…I don’t doubt that anyone who had studied from Tam Sam or Ku Yu Cheung, should be…well…dead…? Sifu Lacey did mention though he would be about 90 years old now, if we are all talking about the same man or not. I am curious though if Lun was the surname? I know it is customary for the Chinese name to give a last name first. If anyone knows of the Choy Lay Fut Wolrd Reunion and has any link sites or news article about that event, it should mention this man somewhere…I suppose.
Nope
Charp-Chui
How ya going? Mate. Are ya c’ming to die?
What I was trying to say was Lun Tse and Loong Tse Cheung are two different people. They both studied with Tarm Sarm. Lun Tse is still alive and should be in his early 90s, but Loong Tse Cheung is dead.
If you can get hold of a copy of the commemorative magazine for last year’s reunion in Singapore, you would have seen photos and CV of these two gentlemen.
I have not learn how to use a canner yet, otherwise I’ll post one here for you.
Joseph
Lun Gee (Chee)
Concerning the continued discussion on who’s who about Lun Gee. What Joseph said I feel is correct. I found this Picture of Lun Chee (presumably “Gee”) with Master Dave Lacey:
http://www.pantherfist.com/banquet.html
Anyone recognize the picture or the man?
I found this on Dave Lacey’s site. Great site, quite informative on Dave Lacey’s history and background. Here is the URL:
Charp-Chui
Lun Chee (Gee)
Yes, that’s him!
Joseph
vince lacey’s bsl
I saw some of his students doing these forms on a tape of Wing Lam’s 25th anniversary (I think). It’s been a while since I saw the tapes, but I remember that I recognized the forms immediately as BSL forms, but with a different flavor. I have seen a student of Lai Hung, who was himself a student of Long Zi Xiang, perform #6 and I remember the flavor being similar. If I get a chance to see the tape again, I’ll try to say something more about it…
Lun Chee (Gee, Tse, etc…)
Here is a recent photo of Lun Chee who was Tam Sam’s inner chamber disciple, at the World Choy Lay Fut Reuinion held in Singapore last June:
http://www.buksing.com/singapore_2001/singapore_neptune_theater.jpg
beiquan,
I would like to hear what you know about those Buk Siu Lum sets that you have witnessed…
Charp-Chui
A Correction on Lun Chee…
I think I made a mistake assuming that the text link picture above was Lun Chee. from the description given in Vince Lacey’s web page about the pic, it sounded like it was one of TWO surviving students of Tam Sam. I think this man’s name is Deng Xi.
Charp-Chui
FUJIYakumo,
I am a practitioner of Bak Hsing CLF.
"is there any conceptual difference between
the two? "
Yes. Conceptually, the 2 versions are distinct. There are commonalities, but the principles of technique differ. Bak Hsing works on modified concepts originating from Hung Hsing CLF. It really depends on one’s lineage within CLF. There are some Bak Hsing folks that seemingly practise what looks like Hung Hsing. This is where lineage plays a great role in how one assimilates their CLF. Truth be told, my exposure to Hong Hsing CLF has sadly been very limited.
“why does one version have 5 and one many more?”
The founder of Bak Hsing CLF was more interested in the fighting aspects of CLF kung fu. Emphasis was thus placed on application and learning through actual fighting and sparring. It has been said that the founder also did not stay long enough under his Hung Hsing sifu to have learned many Hung Hsing patterns. This, in combination with emphasis on fighting, left a legacy of but a few patterns as the foundation of forms work within Bak Hsing CLF. This also speaks to one of the many differences between Hung Hsing and Bak Hsing principles.
“what other differences round out the two versions of CLF?”
I have been told that these differences could fill a book. 
Hope that helps, some. The differences even within Bak Hsing CLF from kwoon-to-kwoon surprise me to this very day. We do what we each do.
There are around 100 or so forms in the Hung Sing system, but realistically, no one can practice 100 forms and be really good at any of them. Most Hung Sing stylists will learn the the more common basic and intermediate sets, some advanced sets, and that’s where they can differ.
Example: Our lineage is Hung Sing, but from two different sources. One is from Sigung John Lem (Chung Lem), who was a lay student of the Wing Foon monastery. In his CLF, the emphasis was on short combinations for 2-person application, and a few short fighting sets, more closely-knit short-hand combinations, and hard qigong. Period. It was strictly based on simple practicality. It is extremely rare.
The other source is from Sigung Howard Lee, a sihing of Doc Fai-Wong under Master Lau Bun. This method has many more sets, long sets, weapons, etc.
These two lineages, though both technically Hung Sing, but due to emphasis/lineage/location, look like almost two different systems.
Not to mention that the Hung Sing of both Sigung Lem and Sigung Lee have little resemblance to the Hung Sing taught by Tat Mau-Wong via Grandmaster Lee Koon-Hung, which came through Hong Kong.
Just wanted to point out that even within the “Hung Sing” system, there are varying degrees of differences, some great.
Jim
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 07-04-2000).]
I am a practioner of Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut and was a student of Sifu Lee Koon Hung and am currently a student of his younger brother Sifu Li Siu Hung. I have often asked my sifu about differences between hung sing and buk sing and differences between various branches of hung sing. One thing I learned was that buk sing does not use the two-handed poon kue sow choy (block with right hand, block with left hand then sow choy) but rather a single or double poon kue with the left hand followed by the sow choy. Other differences I was told was that the stances were a bit higher because the creater Tam Sam liked fighting and designed buk sing choy lay fut primarily for fighting (another reason for the lack of forms). Hope this helps a bit and would like to know of other differences. In any event both branches are good and were all part of the same family.
Buk Sing CLF has more of a northern incfluence to it because it combines Hong Sing CLF and northern shaolin. I don’t know why one has more forms than the other. More forms does not mean a better style. My style has more than 30 hand forms. Wing Chun has a great style and they only have 3 hand forms. IF the style has more hand forms, it’s basically a lot of repeats anyways.
CLF,
You said
Other differences I was told was that the stances were a bit higher because the creater Tam Sam liked fighting and designed buk sing choy lay fut primarily for fighting (another reason for the lack of forms).
Are you saying that a style with a lot of forms isnt’ for fighting? Well anyways Tan Sam fought northern shaolin master.. I think it was Ku Yu Cheong or Yeem Seung Mo. The fight was a tie and they agreed to send their students to the other’s school for further training. That’s how the 2 styles got mixed. Northern shaolin and choy lay fut = Buk Sing CLF. That’s why they wider stances etc.
To Mantis Boxer,
The amount of forms a style has is meaningless. What I was saying is that Tam Sam concentrated more on the fighting aspects of his style rather than make tons of forms that all have the same basic techniques in them. The style of Choy Lay Fut I practise has a lot of forms in it but that doesn’t make it any better or any worse than any other style. I feel it all comes down to the practitioner and how hard one works.
Im a buk sing choy lay fut student. From what my sifu has told me is that our system has more use of the charp choi (leopard fist) then the hung sing version and lower stances due to its northern influence.
That’s is all I know to date I can probably find out some more info Ill check back here later
TIDAL
Can anyone tell me the names of the five Bak Sing Choy Lee Fut Forms? I know that one of them is, possibly sup ji, or sup ji kao da, as some of us at our gwoon were having a similar discussion as to the differences between Bak Sing and Hung Sing. My Choy Lee Fut comes from Chan Heung, Chan Koon Pak, Fong Yuk Shu, Chan Hon Hung, Jew Yu Jong, and Ng Hao Tak (Edmund Ng) from Hong Kong. Our Choy Lee Fut is similar to master Lee Koon Hung`s in appearance, but the pattern of the forms are totally different and our biu jong technique is more like the way it is applied in Hung Gar as apparently masters Fong Yuk Shu, Chan Hon Hung, & Jew Yu Jong, all practised Hung Gar as young men before starting Choy Lee Fut. The strange thing is that the only Bak Sing form I have seen is sup ji the techniques were different but the pattern of the form was nearly the same as our sup ji form.
Bak Sing (little north) is a variation of Hung Sing. Tam Sam’s school was called Siu Bak Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut because of its location. Tam Sam’s students changed the name to Bak Sing CLF to shorten the name and also to show respect to their instructor. The variances between Hung Sing and Bak Sing came about in the same manner as the differences between Tang Fung and Lam Sai Wing Hung Ga, the different schools of Wing Chun, and almost all other schools of martial arts. As students spread out to propogate the art, the evolutionary paths of what they are teaching tend to diverge.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis boxer:
Tan Sam fought northern shaolin master.. I think it was Ku Yu Cheong or Yeem Seung Mo. The fight was a tie and they agreed to send their students to the other’s school for further training. That’s how the 2 styles got mixed. Northern shaolin and choy lay fut = Buk Sing CLF. That’s why they wider stances etc. [/quote]
I'll toss this in... My sihing went to HK over a decade ago and visited Lung, Kai-Ming; son of Lung, Chi-Cheong* (junior classmate of Yim, Sim-Mo). He originally went to question him about Ma, Gim-Fung and also asked him about the infamous fight between Ku, Yu-Cheong and Tam Sam: "IT NEVER HAPPENED," was his response. Isn't that a mindblower? Interesting though...
- Lung, Chi-Cheong was one of the original three students of Ku, Yu-Cheong that was exchanged over to Tam Sam for training in Bak Sing CLF.