bruce lee gung fu forms

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Private Match Between Grandmaster Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee

Some interesting things about Linda Lee’s “Story” of the private match between Grandmaster Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee:

A version was printed in a martial arts magazine including Linda’s comments, the magazine was sued in court by Wong Jack Man; and print a correction in a later issue. Her story was not credible, neither was she.

Linda Lee is not objective; she was Bruce Lee’s wife.

Linda Lee is not a martial arts expert, so she has no standing as an expert witness.

If you think Linda Lee is an expert, then go ahead an train under her.

The original match was to be private, and Bruce Lee violated the terms by going public with it.

When the two fighters to go shake hands to begin the fight, Bruce Lee did not shake hands, but instead went to jab Wong Jack Man’s eyes. If that what you call character, then you not in line with the ancients, or a man’s word.

William Chen, who was an expert witness, has a story more similiar to Wong Jack Man’s.

Wong Jack Man did confront Bruce Lee about the fight when Bruce Lee was alive, and is well documented.

Lee ran from a public rematch, to settle the issue. BL closed his school within months and left for China to study the methods of the victor of the fight; Wong Jack Man

Below from: From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Jack_Man

"This is in contrast to Wong and William Chen’s account of the fight as they state the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes. Allegedly, Wong was unsatisfied with Lee’s account of the match and published his own version in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese language newspaper in San Francisco.

The article, which was featured on the front page, included a detailed description of the fight from Wong’s perspective and concluded with an invitation to Bruce Lee for a public match if Lee found his version to be unacceptable. Lee never made a public response to the article."

More about the match at:

http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com/bruce-lees-toughest-fight.php

[QUOTE=Siu Lum Fighter;1080904]I believe this to be slightly inaccurate. Shui Hon Sang was an older classmate of Grandmaster Ma Gim Fung. The whole reason Bruce went to Shui was because he was impressed with Wong Jack Man’s abilities after his match with him in 1964 and he wanted to learn some of Wong’s style (Bak Siu Lum and Bak Siu Lum Lo Han). Of course, this was the match that caused him to renounce Wing Chun which, despite what many would have you believe, indicates that Bruce didn’t win that fight. After this match and before he began work on The Green Hornet, Bruce went back to Hong Kong a couple of times in 1965. At some point he wrote Wong Jack Man’s teacher, Ma Gim Fung, and requested lessons. Ma was an especially gifted master and had taught Wong Sifu his BSL Lo Han that had been passed down from Ku Yu Cheung. Ma turned him away, but Bruce managed to convince Shui Hon Sang to teach him. Shui was an older classmate of Ma’s and during Bruce’s time in Hong Kong in 1965 Shui taught him Gung Li Chuan and Jie Chuan.[/QUOTE]

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“BL closed his school within months and left for China to study the methods of the victor of the fight; Wong Jack Man”

Wow. He closed his Oakland school? You mean the school that continued to run until the death of James Yimm Lee in 1972? Even then, students under Bruce and James continued to train together after that.
He did go to Hong Kong in 1965, but it was because of his fathers death (Feb 7th 1965). There are pictures of him with family at this time. Read some of his personal letters to Taky Kimura to learn more. His wife and son Brandon followed after him and stayed for awhile. Also, in late 1965 Bruce was attached to the Green Hornet program and would soon move to Los Angeles to be closer to Hollywood.

I already talked about him studying Northern arts in a previous post…in 1958-1959, not 1965. This is confirmed by Shiu Hon Sang himself in many interviews in magazines such as “Real Kung Fu Magazine” and “Secrets of Kung Fu Magazine”. From Shiu Hon Sang, Bruce learned Gong Li Quan, Jeet Kune, Tan Tui, 5 Tiger Spear, Ba Gua Dao saber set. Elements of Jeet Kune can be seen demonstrated by Lee in 1964 at the Ed Parker Karate Internationals in Long Beach, BEFORE his fight with Wong Jack Man.

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originally posted by Foiling Fist
[I]"This is in contrast to Wong and William Chen’s account of the fight as they state the fight lasted an unusually long 2025 minutes. Allegedly, Wong was unsatisfied with Lee’s account of the match and published his own version in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese language newspaper in San Francisco.

The article, which was featured on the front page, included a detailed description of the fight from Wong’s perspective and concluded with an invitation to Bruce Lee for a public match if Lee found his version to be unacceptable. Lee never made a public response to the article." [/I]

I heard from my Si Heng that after the article was published, Bruce and a friend of his (I think he was a Mantis kung fu guy or something) paid Wong Sifu a visit at the Jackson Street Cafe where he worked. I don’t know what happened but Bruce was supposedly really ****ed about the article. I think he was trying to make it seem like he wasn’t at fault for anything because he never mentioned Wong Sifu’s name in the interview so, technically, he never reneged on their agreement to not discuss the match. I guess some people in the Bay Area assumed it was the match in question, and due to the details of the fight divulged by Bruce in the interview, Wong Sifu thought it was too.

When it comes to the controversy surrounding this match I think the main problem for most people is that in order for one side or the other to be right about what happened, someone must have lied. Honestly, I hate to say it, but I think Bruce fibbed about the outcome. Some of the circumstantial evidence supports this because his story doesn’t completely line up with Linda Lee’s. He said he threw this “kung fu cat” down to the ground and held his fist over him and got him to say, “I give up.” I believe Linda says he pounded Wong Sifu in the face until he got him to give up. That is unlikely because Ming Lum says he saw no wounds on Wong’s face (except for the scratch above his eye) when he saw him the very next day and neither Bill Chen nor David Chin would tell you that’s what happened.

I hope this doesn’t make it seem like I really hate BL or anything. I’ve known plenty of guys like him in the world of martial arts. It would have been extremely difficult for a guy like Bruce to admit defeat. His reputation as a qualified instructor could have been damaged and he billed himself as being the best kung fu fighter around. Sure he had a huge ego but that’s the case with most of the martial artists I’ve ever known. It can be difficult to train with guys like that because they’re always asserting themselves and trying to show you up but that’s just what you get with some extreme MA enthusiasts like Bruce.

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originally posted by TopCrusader
I already talked about him studying Northern arts in a previous post…in 1958-1959, not 1965. This is confirmed by Shiu Hon Sang himself in many interviews in magazines such as “Real Kung Fu Magazine” and “Secrets of Kung Fu Magazine”. From Shiu Hon Sang, Bruce learned Gong Li Quan, Jeet Kune, Tan Tui, 5 Tiger Spear, Ba Gua Dao saber set. Elements of Jeet Kune can be seen demonstrated by Lee in 1964 at the Ed Parker Karate Internationals in Long Beach, BEFORE his fight with Wong Jack Man.

After reading the Hawkins Cheung article on this I’ve been led to believe that this is indeed true. Shiu Hon Sang was good friends with Bruce’s father and it does seem Bruce began his training with him back in the 50’s. I thought he only learned Gong Li Quan and Jeet Kune though. I didn’t know he learned 5 Tiger Spear or Ba Gua Dao. It would make sense since those are also Jing Mo sets. I do remember seeing an interview with Dan Inosanto in which he says Bruce knew the 12 Rows of Tan Tui. Does Shiu Hon Sang say that he taught him all of that stuff in the late 50’s? If not, then it seems like Bruce could’ve learned some or those sets after the WJM match. The way Dan says it, it seems like the Tan Tui was something Bruce was drilling a lot when he came back from Hong Kong in the mid-sixties. It’s actually kinda cool for me to know Bruce was training with some of the sets in my own curriculum. Those forms and the Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut (another Bak Siu Lum related style) he learned from the Lacey’s definitely influenced his overall style. What does Ted Wong or Teri Tom know anyway.

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[QUOTE=Siu Lum Fighter;1131551]After reading the Hawkins Cheung article on this I’ve been led to believe that this is indeed true. Shiu Hon Sang was good friends with Bruce’s father and it does seem Bruce began his training with him back in the 50’s. I thought he only learned Gong Li Quan and Jeet Kune though. I didn’t know he learned 5 Tiger Spear or Ba Gua Dao. It would make sense since those are also Jing Mo sets. I do remember seeing an interview with Dan Inosanto in which he says Bruce knew the 12 Rows of Tan Tui. Does Shiu Hon Sang say that he taught him all of that stuff in the late 50’s? If not, then it seems like Bruce could’ve learned some or those sets after the WJM match. The way Dan says it, it seems like the Tan Tui was something Bruce was drilling a lot when he came back from Hong Kong in the mid-sixties. It’s actually kinda cool for me to know Bruce was training with some of the sets in my own curriculum. Those forms and the Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut (another Bak Siu Lum related style) he learned from the Lacey’s definitely influenced his overall style. What does Ted Wong or Teri Tom know anyway.[/QUOTE]

LOL I like your final comment! I agree. I have several English printed interviews with Shiu Hon Sang. I will double check tonight, but I think in one he just mentions Gong Li Quan (Kung Lik Kune?) and Jeet Kune. In another, he elaborates much more and gives a much deeper background on training Lee. From what I recall, he taught Bruce Gong Li Quan first in 1958. There was a break in their training as Shiu Hon Sang had to go star in a Wong Fei Hung film. Upon returning to training, this is when the other Jing Mo sets were taught. Im just going off of memory right now, but I think Shiu Hon Sang wanted to teach BL a longer Jing Mo form but Bruce declined, wanted something shorter. So, he was taught Jeet Kune. Another form that isnt part of the Jing Mo 10 sets that was taught to Bruce was “Beng Bu” from Northern Mantis. I believe this fact is also recounted by Hawkins Cheung in his “famous” articles on Bruce/JKD.
As far as the weapons forms, Shiu recounts in interviews that Bruce did learn them, but didnt “focus” on them since to Bruce learning weapons was secondary apparently. He obviously recalled a few movements of the 5 Tiger spear set, as he performed a few motions of it on the beach with Dan Inosanto in 1965-ish.

Siu Lum Fighter, a question for you since youve read the Hawkins Cheung articles. In them, when he lists the forms he learned along with Bruce from Shiu, he says they learned a basic Northern form called “Lam Ad” or something like that. Any idea what that is?
Here is the quote from the article: "We began to learn lam ad (a basic northern style gung-fu set). "
I dont speak or read chinese, so I have no idea if its another way of saying one of the Jing Mo forms? Id like your input.

As far as the Dan Inosanto interview, I cant remember when/where its from, but I do recall him mentioning Tan Tui. I could be wrong, but I believe Guro Inosanto is listing basically the arts Lee arrived from Hong Kong with. Also in the list he mentions Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc. I’ll have to dig around for it.

As far as the Laceys, yes they definitely hung out together and traded techniques most definitely. However, Im not aware of them sharing any specifics of what Bruce “took” or liked , however Im guessing the Panther fist is one of them as Bruce did that move ALOT as can be seen in photographs through the years.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1080425]I don’t think it is any particular form, but various movements from a variaty of systems. The first pose is probably as stated, some form of SPM. The others do not appear to be SPM, but other styles.
Just because some magazine editor numbered the pictures doesn’t mean he had a clue. Remember, BL loved to strike poses.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you.

The first pick brings to mind S Mantis and/or Bak Mei… but generally they just seem like a bunch of generic “animal poses.” I could see Dragon, chicken, mantis, tiger claw.

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

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In Enter the Dragon, BL does the kicking sequence from the Northern set (forget the name) it is a popular sequence that is also trained in Chinese Opera, so he might have gotten it from his father as well.
In the black and white screen test nterviews, he demonstrates a “crane” form, which, I at first thought was ad-libbed, but he has done that exact sequence at other times.(I belive in Return of the Dragon)
Anyone know what this set is?

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I’m curious as to why it matters what forms he did?

However, I train Jeet Kune Do and the closest thing we do to forms are combinations.

Personally, I like learning about Bruce’s evolution of his approach to combat, but since he threw out 95% of TCMA stuff for ACTUAL fighting I could care less what he did before.

Bruce’s Jeet Kune Do as stated by many of his own students and in his own notes say that it was a combination of modified fencing, modified boxing, and modified wing chun.

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Bruce Lee is awesome!

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[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1131623] a combination of modified fencing, modified boxing, and modified wing chun.[/QUOTE]

you could clearly see his early beginnings of an infatuation with jiujitsu also. I think bruce lee’s personal quest was to find and develop a system of what we now call ‘a complete skill set’ as in striking and grappling, standing or on the ground.

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Bruce learned from a man by the name of Master Fook Yeung for..I believe it was 8 years when he came to Seattle, WA.

Master Yeung did a variant of Red Boat Wing Chun which had some aspects of Southern Praying mantis in it.

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bruce lee learned a few northern forms, but never told people he trained in those styles. so what? whats the big deal?

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[QUOTE=bawang;1131742]bruce lee learned a few northern forms, but never told people he trained in those styles. so what? whats the big deal?[/QUOTE]

Bruce Lee was the first Chinese person to allow white people to accept him as their Confucian father figure. If we fail to preserve everything, then we bring shame on the entire line of actress banging epicness, and no one will remember us.

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originally posted by TopCrusader
Siu Lum Fighter, a question for you since youve read the Hawkins Cheung articles. In them, when he lists the forms he learned along with Bruce from Shiu, he says they learned a basic Northern form called “Lam Ad” or something like that. Any idea what that is?
Here is the quote from the article: "We began to learn lam ad (a basic northern style gung-fu set). "
I dont speak or read chinese, so I have no idea if its another way of saying one of the Jing Mo forms? Id like your input.

Unless it’s written in a different dialect or something it doesn’t sound like any of the basic 10 Jing Mo sets. I was thinking Lien Bo or Sil Wah but I can’t imagine them being said like that. There are a couple of other sets that I actually don’t know that could be it. There’s Five Step Fist (Wu Bo Chuan) and Short Strike Fist (?). I have to say, that seems like a lot of stuff for just the short time he studied with Shiu Hon Sang in the late fifties, especially considering he was studying Wing Chun as well. He probably learned some of these forms in '65 when he went back. I would actually be curious to know if he learned the Tan Tui sparring set as that would definitely be something I could see him wanting to learn.