TopCrusader,
I’d like to talk w/ you offline please. Send me an e-mail to: aynsofwill@aol.com and I will reply.
LTN
Greetings,
TopCrusader:
When you say “he made it all up” are you referring to Bruce Lee or Gin Foon Mark?
mickey
Hello Mickey,
Let me clarify, I BELIEVE the story of Bruce training with Gin Foon Mark is true. When I said some people believe that he “made it all up” I was referring to some JKD people having the opinion that GFM made the story up (possibly to attract business? i dont know).
However, Gin Foon Mark has been well established for years so needed no reason to fabricate a story. Like I said in my earlier post, the only way to really get to the bottom of it is to interview more people under Gin Foon Mark at the time, Bruce’s family (he had a plane ticket to get out to NYC for a month!) , etc. And also to see if in Bruce Lee’s massive library that his estate still has, to see if the Jook Lum Mantis manuals that GFM gave to Bruce are in there.
Also, I havent read any stories by any original Bruce Lee students (such as Jesse Glover) that recall Bruce talking to them about training with GFM. But this shouldnt surprise anybody…Bruce seemed to be selective about sharing that kind of information.
“When I said some people believe that he “made it all up” I was referring to some JKD people having the opinion that GFM made the story up (possibly to attract business? i dont know).”
I find there are alot more people OUTSIDE of the JKD groups who did something like meet Bruce once and say “He was my teacher”. With no disrepsect intended towards Grandmaster Gin Foon Mark..why would any JKD people do this?
"Also, I havent read any stories by any original Bruce Lee students (such as Jesse Glover) that recall Bruce talking to them about training with GFM. But this shouldnt surprise anybody…Bruce seemed to be selective about sharing that kind of information. "
Well…Jesse is my teacher..and I’m extremely grateful for it . He’s a man of unquestionable integrity! He’s also a man of few words. When a person is dead..people have a tendency to say whatever they wish. As an example..books always write that Bruces’ first school was in Oakland. Not so. The first ever school he had was in Seattle and Jesse was Bruces’ first student and certified instructor. Taky Kimura was later on. The list of people Bruce studied with is possibly more extensive than any one individual is privy to. For instance..you’ve got Master Yeung Fook..of the “Red Boat” Wing Chun style(We’ve all heard of Ip Man and yet how many people outside of the select few have heard of Master Yeung? Very few! Master Yeung taught Bruce for ..I believe it was 8 years). Jesse was also a top Judo practitioner/champion and I’m told taught Bruce Judo.
Does that mean that just because many have not heard of him that he didn’t teach Bruce?
It’s important to keep in mind, that some who taught Bruce did not have a flashing neon sign and 2 page ad in the Yellow pages.
Bruce did trade Cha Cha lessons to learn the Jeet Kuen form from some Sifu in HK. I can’t remember his name. The Sifu’s said that Bruce learned the form before he got to finish his Cha Cha lessons. I’ll do some research to find out who the Sifu is.
Siu Hon Sang sifu
Didn’t Bruce Lee invent rocket propulsion and was the first man on the moon as well?
lol…man people still wanna get close to this guy and he’s been dead longer than a lot of the posters here have been alive!
He was not a Hung Kuen guy.
Siu Hon Sang sifu, one of the teachers of Bruce Lee, was also a Hung Kyun master. My opinion is that Bruce Lee has seen some Hung Kyun and has posed in some of the techniques for photos, but never learned any Hung Kyun formally. well, we can all pose in a Taijiquan “single whip”, WCH "taan da"or CLF “chaap cheui” posture, right?
“Jeet Kune form”
Jeet Kune is a form in both Northern Eagle Claw as well as Mantis(Lian Jie “intercept fist”..Jie= Jeet–different dialect).
Bruce supposedly derided Hung Kuen because he felt it was too traditional. But having read pretty much all of his published books..I never once heard him mention “Hung Ga” or “Hung Kuen”.
What’s puzzling is..there are a good deal of similarities between Hung and Choy Li Fut(stances, bridging, animal emphasis,etc) and yet he was very complimentary towards CLF saying that CLF is one of the best systems for fighting multiple opponents. 
Maybe so, but I don’t have any idea how Bruce Lee would have much insight into fighting multiple opponents and what would or would not work. He never really fought anybody outside of movies and certainly not in multiples and even more certainly never used CLF to do so.
Quite frankly, I wish all this worship and misguided starry eye stuff would stop. Just appreciate the dude for what he was and not for what he’s been trumped up to be for whatever reasons.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1165369]Maybe so, but I don’t have any idea how Bruce Lee would have much insight into fighting multiple opponents and what would or would not work. He never really fought anybody outside of movies and certainly not in multiples and even more certainly never used CLF to do so.
Quite frankly, I wish all this worship and misguided starry eye stuff would stop. Just appreciate the dude for what he was and not for what he’s been trumped up to be for whatever reasons.[/QUOTE]
Never fought anybody? You obviously havent read anything Wong Shun Leung, William Chung, Vince Lacey, Jesse Glover, Skip Ellsworth, James DeMile, or Hawkins Cheung have wrote.
I dont see anything in this thread that is “worship”. I just see people trying to trace Bruce Lee’s martial learnings.
[QUOTE=TopCrusader;1165385]Never fought anybody? You obviously havent read anything Wong Shun Leung, William Chung, Vince Lacey, Jesse Glover, Skip Ellsworth, James DeMile, or Hawkins Cheung have wrote.
I dont see anything in this thread that is “worship”. I just see people trying to trace Bruce Lee’s martial learnings.[/QUOTE]
Good luck with that.
Bruce Lee and Hung Kuen
[QUOTE=TopCrusader;1141566]I have so many questions I would ask Taky and Jesse its ridiculous! I would overwhelm them LOL!
Bruce definitely learned Bung Bo (Mantis) form from Shiu Hon Sang. He has stated this himself in several interviews. And yes, Bruce did train with Gin Foon Mark, at least according to him. I have yet to come across any source of Bruce telling his early students that he did train with him, but that doesnt really mean anything as Bruce seemed to keep alot of that type of information to himself.
As far as Fook Yueng, I agree completely. There is much not known that should be known about their connection. If only I lived on the west coast…
LaterThanNever,
If you could ask Jesse or Taky about the influence of Hung Kuen on Bruce and his art, that would be fantastic. Id really like to know what form of Hung he taught to Jesse (Tiger/Crane?) and how much of an impact it had on Jun Fan Gung Fu.[/QUOTE]
Goodluck , on tracing BL martial arts background , just to let you people know we already had discussions on BL and his martial arts background . But the thread ended up having debates and arguments so someone from this forum had decided to close it .
I too had been doing research on BL myself , but all I did was do more reading on BL . Jesse Glover wrote a book on BL called the transition from WC into JKD and to me it ’ s a very good book . Now I ’ m trying to get the book which is based on his own kung fu training . Go to warriorvideos.net they carry the books which jesse wrote on BL . You can get some information from people who already replied to this topic thread on BL . Unless you really meet people who really trained with BL you would ’ nt know too , but goodluck .
[QUOTE=TopCrusader;1165385]Never fought anybody? You obviously havent read anything Wong Shun Leung, William Chung, Vince Lacey, Jesse Glover, Skip Ellsworth, James DeMile, or Hawkins Cheung have wrote.
I dont see anything in this thread that is “worship”. I just see people trying to trace Bruce Lee’s martial learnings.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I steer clear of fantasy fiction with heavy embellishments.
Everyone you mention has a career stake in Bruce’s image.
But the fact of the matter is that Bruce got in some HS scuffles in HK, got sent back to America to go to school and there he also competed in cha cha dance which was his big thing at the time.
He may have had a fight with Wong Jack Man, but that has been veiled. There is a telling of it Other than that we have the story of the kid on the set of ETD who challenged him and Bruce slapped him around a little. Other than that, he did typical kung fu demos, thumb pushups, pushing people into chairs etc and did a castrated demo match with muhammad ali that everyone agreed was a lark. Other than that, he never really tested the mettle of his kung fu in a worthy and well watched fight. He wasn’t a pro fighter and wasn’t a soldier. He was an ambitious kung fu guy who wanted more than anything to be a movie star.
You can argue til you’re blue in the face and talk about books written by guys who wouldn’t have a career without the existence of Bruce, but the facts is the facts, Bruce Lee was never known as a great fighter. He was a cult of personality and apparently still is today.
His offerings don’t go un-noticed, but his avid followers come across as gullible chumps quite often.
I find Bruce Lee’s story to be interesting. I don’t think he was a great martial artist, though I think his approach to fitness and health was a good model for people, especially considering the obesity pandemic. And his movies were fun, and actually convinced quite a few people that he was some invincible super-warrior. In terms of MA movies… that’s the ultimate accomplishment for an actor.
“Everyone you mention has a career stake in Bruce’s image.”
I’m not sure I would agree entirely with that. Jesse is the kind of person who..if we are shooting a clip of a class, or taking a photo of the class, he doesn’t want to be in the video/photos. In fact..if you walked past the school..there is no way in a million years that you would know there is a kung fu school (there is no signage), no advertizing. It’s in the basement of a building. His books that are written are no longer being published(in other words, he’s not trying to make a buck at Bruce’s memory)
Jesse himself is emphatic in stating he “doesn’t teach JKD”. In fact..a friend of mine who teaches there(at Jesses’ school) was telling us that recently at a JKD seminar in Oakland, that a fair ammount of what he demonstrated..the JKD guys in Oakland had never learned much less practiced!
Jesse COULD go on National TV and in magazines, try and hype up that he was Bruces’ first student and certified associate instructor..but he doesn’t!
Last I heard, Wong Shun Leung was dead. So how can a dead man have a career stake in Bruce’s (also posthumous) image?
William Cheung is William Cheung. He’s milked his name for all it’s worth(not a judgement..just an observation) just being a student of the late Ip Man. Though using Bruces’ name obviously helped him put his name on the map…he could have achieved a large percentage of his fame of being recognized even without Bruce’s name play.
GM Vince Lacey does CLF. I don’t see how (or why) he would have dropped Bruces’ name for self promotion.
You could have an arm-wrestling academy and still profit from a Bruce Lee connection.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1165432]
Bruce Lee was never known as a great fighter. He was a cult of personality and apparently still is today.
.[/QUOTE]
Heard this from a older gentlemen that knew Bruce in Hong Kong… He said Bruce was very athletic and fast but, his kung fu was not very good!
there was an article written years ago in IKF by Hawkins Cheung. He discussed and I believe printed a copy of the letter Bruce sent him from US where he stated,“There are people working in restaurants and waiting on tables that have, dare I say it, greater skill than Sifu.” (paraphrased)
It is well-known that Bruce Lee was referring to Lam Sang and Mark Foon, who owned and worked the Bamboo Forest (Jook Lum)Restaurant in NYC’s Chinatown.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1166066]there was an article written years ago in IKF by Hawkins Cheung. He discussed and I believe printed a copy of the letter Bruce sent him from US where he stated,“There are people working in restaurants and waiting on tables that have, dare I say it, greater skill than Sifu.” (paraphrased)
It is well-known that Bruce Lee was referring to Lam Sang and Mark Foon, who owned and worked the Bamboo Forest (Jook Lum)Restaurant in NYC’s Chinatown.[/QUOTE]
It’s the same with musicians. It has less to do with skill and more to do with dumb luck and marketability. Some of the best guitarists around are playing in bars and friends’ basements.