I’ve been studying under (literally :)) one of Rickson’s instructors for a few months now.
Please tell me at some point it’s possible to escape crappy positions like mount even if your opponent is more skilled I’m the junior in the class by a fair ways and spent 2 hours on Saturday pretty much permanently dominated in “escape from mount” drilling. It gets frustrating after a while - not the constant losing, more the lack of any progress. I expect to be positionally dominated by the other guys but I don’t feel like Im getting anywhere. I guess it’s all part of paying my dues…
I make a point of not trying to just muscle through things as it seems so counter to my Taiji training. I’ve done some reading though and some advice seems to be at white belt you’ve gotta learn to use explosiveness and speed before you can learn finesse and skill. You got an opinion on this?
Eventually you will learn the mechanics of escaping from inferior positions vs superior skilled opponents, its up to you at the time etc to apply and relax.
One of the biggest lessons before you can learn speed and explosiveness on the ground or standing is learning to relax and manage your energy.
As a beginner, your best friends are the elbow escapes and the bridge and roll. If you have them down, you will be able to escape various pins applied to you by the more advanced guys. Your next best friend is the guard. Try this - when you are rolling, don’t worry about trying to tap anyone - just concentrate on escaping and pulling guard. when you are to the point where you can pull guard at will, then move on to something else.
Also, believe it or not, you have made progress. The thing is, the people that have been grappling longer are probably way better than you. When you roll with a newbie, or with someone who doesn’t grapple, you’ll see just how much progress you’ve made.
One last thing - when you’re mounted, work your escapes in combos - if you were ONLY trying elbow escapes, he probably wasn’t expecting you to bridge and roll, and vice versa.
Getting better technique doesn’t mean not doing something explosively. What it means is that you learn WHEN to be explosive and when it’s a waste of effort.
When you bump to create space to do an albow escape or a bridge, you have to do it like your life depends on it. I know how hard this can be if they have you high mounted with their knees in your armpits, or if you get a guy who’s just that dang good.
Good luck! As you progress, the amount of space you need to do things will become smaller and smaller.
if you are thinking too much about being “explosive” , and not enough about ‘what to do’ to get out of the mounted pos, you’re going to tire yourself out early and then you might just end up stuck there for a looong time… especially since the guy on top usually is using mostly his body weight to hold you down(if he’s smart), while you are trying to muscle your way out. See where this goes? It tires you out while he’s getting a rest. Dont freak out if someone mounts you, the worst that will happen is you’ll have to tap. Even ask the guy on top, “time out, what would you do?”. If he’s a good partner he’ll show you and let you practice a few times before you do it with full intensity.
One thing that helps me out is to dig my elbows sharply into the insides of their knees to pry them apart a bit, then scoot sideways and try to pull a leg free. Dig the elbows in good, whether mounted or in the guard, they hate this.
It’s difficult to escape mount on a more experienced grappler,
You have to remember that your level of escape is going up against thier level of mount skill,
They have been grappling longer so their skill will be higher and this makes it more difficult for you to escape,
You must just keep practicing and your escapes will get better.
I understand how frustrating it can be but it happens in all sports, just like a novice boxer can’t hit a more experienced one,the better he gets with practice the more accurate he becomes.
Use explosive movements to escape but don’t go into a frenzy and use unnessasary energy,only explode with a purpose in mind,otherwise you will expend too much energy and then you will be in even more trouble.
I knew enough from watching various vids over the years not to thrash around - I meant explosive purely in terms of bumping the hips, and speed in terms of creating the space and getting out. I’ve been trying to do it with technique, which I lack I guess you get out any way you can and then refine that into the technique?
I think what I find hard is, if I try and rest when they rest, then they get higher on me and then drop their chest onto me - the only thing I can do is put my arm across their throat, but that always leads to me getting sub’d.
The frustration is similiar to pushing hands with someone much more skilled - wherever you think there’s an opening it gets taken away just as you reach it, and then you’re overextended and they take the **** It’s a bit more disconcerting in BJJ because I’m very conscious that I can’t just step away - that feeling of helplessness is not nice. Getting used to it now though.
Also learned not to do throws with another beginner - got dropped when they stalled a throw and landed my ribs on their foot. *******.
I’m enjoying it immensely though and it’s great to train with a group of humble, dedicated people that are all helpful. Just pray to god my ears don’t turn out like some of theirs (most of them are from wrestling/grappling backgrounds that supplement with BJJ).
When I grappled a Machado brown(who recently became a black) there was only one way to escape his mount,
Knee and elbow didn’t work and neither did bridging,nor did the hydraulic.
In the seminar the day before he taught us an intersting escape that I use when a more experienced grappler mounts me.
Take the palms of your hands and place them on his knees,hold his knees in place and using small vibrating movements slide out from under him,as soon as it it possible you must attain half guard,
You must make the movements small and explosive otherwide he will be able to counter it easily.It must be like a vibration,this will upset hi balance and also he will not be able to clamp down on you.
I escaped from his mount 3 or 4 times this way,
he still tapped me in the end,but thats cause he can grapple witht the best of them.
I think what I enjoy most about reading these kinds of posts is the discovery from the poster that “things that seemed like a good idea on the ground, really aren’t.” I admit to feeling smug and vindicated. I’m only human.
Standing and ground don’t really translate all that well, IMO.
But, back to you. Don’t reach for their throat. Keep your elbows tucked in. Either protect your neck or your face depending on your context. If the elbow ain’t enough, use your hand on their knee to push it out and away from you as you bump and turn.
A couple of tips:
All you need is a tiny bit of space to get your elbow between your body and their knee. That’s your wedge. Don’t lose it.
Get on your side as you bump. If you stay on your back, you will be at a mechanical disadvantage.
In my short 2 months on the mat I have learned how important it is to simply try and learn about position. Don’t worry about submissions. Sure, try to escape bad positions and eventually try to reduce the ease with which others put you into these positions. Don’t worry about being tapped.
LOL! I thought only Lloyd taught that. Not like he invented it (although he did discover it for himself), but I’ve never seen anybody teach it. I use it all the time!
Is it ‘more ok’ to apply pressure to the throat with the elbow or forearm [than with the grip] [in general; as opposed to just wrt only bottom positions]?
That depends. If you are in a “dominant” position, ie, crossside, mounted, knee on belly, north south, or top man in half guard, applying pressure with the forearm is ok–encouraged, actually. It’s really not a “hand or forearm,” issue. It’s an extension issue. An extended arm is a broken arm. He could just as easily have been pushing on the other guys’ chest or chin or shoulder, as his throat.
If you are in an inferior position, OR in somebody’s guard, it’s not a good idea to try and apply pressure to the throat with your arms extended. You tend to get put in a lot of armlocks of various sorts.
Like any rule, of course, it’s made to be broken You can usually safely apply pressure if you are using it to create space to escape–but that is in coordination with your body movement, not just leaving your arms out in space. You just have to be careful and know when you’re in danger and when you aren’t. If the guy is mounted, reaching up to his neck is bad. If you are the bottom guy in half-guard, maybe you like it there, and you have chokes and what not, etc.
I guess I was wondering if, for example… you were on top in someone’s closed guard and you created pressure against their throat with your elbow, if they would have enough space to go for an armbar.
I suppose ultimately it must depend… on things like… how much you’re torquing out their spine with pressure from your hips to deny them a strong posture?
ok - so I’m still lacking suggestions for what to do when they’re quite high and smothering. I can work on their thighs with my elbows and force them down again but I’d like to avoid being smothered as it makes it hard to prevent myself from gassing. The only thing I came up with at the time (as I outlined before)was using my forearm as a brace in front of me so that they couldn’t just fall on me - however I kept getting armbar’d or they’d control the elbow and shift the arm across my chest, effectively controlling my arms with one (it’s quite funny - a lot of the stuff is really obvious as it’s happening, but I still can’t do much about it :))
Is being in side-mount any better than being in mount? (I’ll ask on Saturday anyway but I like to hear your opinions). I ask because when they go higher then there seems to be room to move my head and chest under their arm and use my hand on the other side to escape. Admittedly when I tried it I still ended up in mount but I felt like I was getting somewhere
Merry - I’d say stand up grappling experience is helpful in perceiving what is happening on the ground. It’s also helped me in terms of touch and sensitivity - I’m aware of what’s happening down there, just not able to formulate effective responses to it. For instance the elbow controls are very familiar to me but the floor stops me escaping in the ways I might if we were vertical.
Either buck them forward hard and try to come underneath out the back door, OR, you can use your legs to try and get your feet in their arms/armpits (or in front of their shoulders even and) use that to either pull you out the back door, or upset their balance backwards.
Kaitain–I agree that any kind of sensitivity type training helps–but the specific way of moving is different (as you’ve found out w/regards to not being able to escape thanks to the floor.)
I really wasn’t trying to be a jerk with my comments. It’s just always interesting to see people who are working on the ground for the first time go “Hey wow, this is really different!” Which is what those of us with a good bit of ground experience have been trying to say in the first place!
I’m the junior in the class by a fair ways and spent 2 hours on Saturday pretty much permanently dominated in “escape from mount” drilling. It gets frustrating after a while - not the constant losing, more the lack of any progress. I expect to be positionally dominated by the other guys but I don’t feel like Im getting anywhere. I guess it’s all part of paying my dues…
You can usually safely apply pressure if you are using it to create space to escape–but that is in coordination with your body movement, not just leaving your arms out in space. You just have to be careful and know when you’re in danger and when you aren’t. If the guy is mounted, reaching up to his neck is bad. If you are the bottom guy in half-guard, maybe you like it there, and you have chokes and what not, etc.