Bigger Muscle???

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

Castle I hear ya, and believe me, not trying to change anyone’s mind here … just putting in my two cents. I hope everyone keeps lifting and training to kick harder and higher and all that … I’ll keep training mechanics and a refinement of my technique, just different aproaches, though I used to train that way. I played college football for a season and used to go to town on the makiware when studying Isshin-Ryu. My training is different now.

As for lifting, here is where we differ. My martial art is not something I turn on, and say, OK, now I will shield and use lifting power to drive under this attack, it just comes out on its own.

If you spend three days a week fighting weight, what happens when you feel weight being applied to your body? How do you react?

Maybe you can seperate the two … good for you! I’m no even a taiji guy, but I live my art 24/7. How can you train against, then participate in against, training your muscle memory in against, over and over. You don’t think this affects you as an internalist?

Again, if you did Hung Gar and weighed 160lbs I’d say you better lift … if not, good luck.

And if I’ve seen two people shoot themselves in the foot do I need to see more to know I don’t want to do the same. These were guys I used to not be able to beat. Now I beat them easily. What happened? With all their lifting I can push them easily and they can’t push me … where’s the power?

Are you pushing with your arms, biceps or even chest? Or are you pushing with something else? All the bench press in the world, they won’t equal the power of the thigh and a$$ of a 200lbs guy. I’ve been taugh to always call my big brother when it comes time to fight, not have the little guy do the job.

Again, this is just a difference in outlook though. I want to be able to fight the big guy, and when I age another 10, 15, 20 years, I want to fight the young guy. Should I invest in speed or power than? Or should I spend hours a week investing in both? And what happens when I get older? What happens when I slow down.

How can you be faster than the fast kid, more powerful than the big guy? This is what everyone is looking for. Should I lift and bounce the rubber ball, or should move as one and as little as possible?

22

for me, I am not strong naturally. very flexible and I run 4-5 miles a couple times a week, but I’ve been lifting twice a week for half a year and can bench press maybe 80 pounds. It’s hard for the hard to meet the soft when there is no hard.

23

EF,

Is very right, the way taiji deals with force and the way weight training trains the body are very different.

the leaf used to lift as a younger man, even did a lot of body conditioning depending on the style I was working with.

It all works against the idea of taiji. Half of your training will be unlearning all the other things that you have taught your body.

For some they won’t be able to let it go and will never get it.

This is what I have found and saw in other people. If the question is can wt training help your taiji practice I don’t see how. Others may find something different.

24

If you take your martial art seriously, consistantly, over a long period of time, you will most likely realize that basically what EF says is true. Martial art is not designed to be a thing you turn on, its designed to just be integrated into how you work, which is why you hear people talk about how ‘much of your style can you use’. If you turn it on and off..never very much, if you use it always, even walking down the street or practice breathing and posture while sitting until its unconcious, you then at least have the potential to get ‘it’. Because of this, yes, weightlifting can have a VERY detrimental effect on your training, unless you just want to hit hard, but dont train sensitivity, speed, flow, adaptability to as high of a degree. Former Castleva, no need for proof…if you did it yourself you would know. EF is just trying to give some pretty good tips to guys that have yet to go down the road he has. The reason most will not believe him is the same reason that most will never be able to fight decently using tai chi, aikido, kung fu styles in general…etc. They must have 100% faith and be completely immersed in that way of moving of their style, or it doesnt ‘become your own’

25

Great responses from EF, BL & GA.

Once a student asked my Sifu if he should take up exercises to increase his cardio, answer was do the form 10-times nonstop, if he could do it without props he got enough cardio.

I think among the skills we modern man are starting to loose are the important ones of:

1.) Asking the right questions
2.) Listening to our superiors
3.) Observation
4.) Making decisions without outside influence
5.) Judging the self

If I remember weight training(western style) is still very new new in China and not that widespread.

So we should ask ourselves how did MA-Masters build strength and similar without using weights back in those days.

The next question will need to be are the traditional or the modern method BEST for what I am doing.

After that only can you make a decision.

Just some ramblings.

26

I completely disagree, but let me ask you anti weightlifting guys a question. Which is worse having alot of extra muscle or alot of extra fat? Because it terms of health the answer is obvious. But I gather health is not really a concern of yours

27

Jun_erh.

Let me ask you a question what is more important for you having good MA skill or a good-looking body?

IME, most IMA guys tend to carry very little excess fat, exceptions do exist.
But BMI and if a six-pack is showing or not are not identifiers if a person is fit or strong.

I would go as far as saying that a low BMI is atleast as unhealthy as one that is too high.

Weights are not the ONLY method to reduce excess fat and gain health.

FWIW, and I am repeating myself here again IMA have their own methods of weight & strength training.

28

Laughing Cow . . .

Perhaps if you went a bit more indepth into specific, physical reasons why non-internal training is bad for the martial artist, you’re argument would gain some credence with those outside the IMA circle (or line, if someone happens to be Xingyi :wink: )

29

Re: Laughing Cow . . .

Originally posted by Vash
Perhaps if you went a bit more indepth into specific, physical reasons why non-internal training is bad for the martial artist, you’re argument would gain some credence with those outside the IMA circle (or line, if someone happens to be Xingyi :wink: )

The reasons were given above in posts above by people way more skilled in IMA than me.
Reread the thread and also note whose posts I agreed with.

IMA tend to train the body to move in a certain way using certain “qualities”, training that runs counter to those will naturally have an impact on the quality of your movements.

IMA does have weight and strength training designed to further the skill of the IMAist, there is no need to supplement with non-IMA methods that CAN result in reduced IMA skill.

If you have ever pushed with a 70 or 80 IMA or seen them handling a heavy weapon effortlessly than you would know that the skill does not come from muscles and pure strength alone.

Seeya.

30

I just think of this because of Robert Smiths big fat tai chi teacher (s) in Chinese Boxing: masters and methods.

I wonder about people if a tai chi teacher who tells his students not to weight lift or run has is commiting a criminal act when the poor kid gets his ass kicked by a 6 year old girl.

31

Originally posted by jun_erh
I just think of this because of Robert Smiths big fat tai chi teacher (s) in Chinese Boxing: masters and methods.

Who would that be??
I don’t judge MA by their girdle size, but by their skill in MA.


I wonder about people if a tai chi teacher who tells his students not to weight lift or run has is commiting a criminal act when the poor kid gets his ass kicked by a 6 year old girl.

Maybe it is a crime if he does not develop/nurture DECENT MA skills in them.

32

golden arms- your avatar seems to contradict your statement

33

Here is an exempt from

THE TREATISE ON T’AI CHI CH’UAN
Attributed to Wang Tsung-yueh [Wang Zongyue] (18th Century)

The opponent does not know me;
I alone know him.

To become a peerless boxer results from this.

There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don’t go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

From the sentence “A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds”
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.

The spectacle of an old person defeating a group of young people,
how can it be due to swiftness?

Seeya.

34

"There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don’t go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques."

I wonder if this is just elitism in a tuxedo.I can be wrong of course.

“IMA does have weight and strength training designed to further the skill of the IMAist, there is no need to supplement with non-IMA methods that CAN result in reduced IMA skill.”

And nobody has ably demonstrated why you cannot do that.

"
Former Castleva, no need for proof…if you did it yourself you would know. "

Let´s assume I did.Now what if I did,and DID fine?
Not very convincing IMHO.

"If I remember weight training(western style) is still very new new in China and not that widespread. "

That´s irrelevant (again,IMHO).Bodybuilding has become fairly popular in China I hear.

“The next question will need to be are the traditional or the modern method BEST for what I am doing.”

A good question to ask!

“So we should ask ourselves how did MA-Masters build strength and similar without using weights back in those days”

Should you also ask whether you need to follow their footsteps in the most strict of manners? Considering how much has improved since-.

"If you have ever pushed with a 70 or 80 IMA or seen them handling a heavy weapon effortlessly than you would know that the skill does not come from muscles and pure strength alone.
"
AND

"Because of this, yes, weightlifting can have a VERY detrimental effect on your training, unless you just want to hit hard, but dont train sensitivity, speed, flow, adaptability to as high of a degree. "

It might be good enough to see a person,regardless of their status&age,to handle a heavy weapon effortlessly…but that´s another question.
None of us have been saying that “the skill comes from muscles and pure strength alone” (for example).
That smells like false dilemma/black&white fallacy.
There are more choises than “for or against us”.

35

Ah, non-IMA training can bog down the IMArtist. Gotcha.

For my experience, those who I know in the MA who lift (not a lot, actually) don’t rely on strength. Our sensei, who lifts constantly, and lays brick for a living, has done so for the past 20 someodd years, constantly tells everyone to finesse techniques. You can’t win a fight against a good fighter with power. You gotta have the technique.

Rambling.

Strength training improves muscular function, including speed and (if the techniques are practiced like they should be) fine motor skills. If technique falters during weight training, two reasons: Decrease in technical practice, or overdevelopment of acting muscles in relation to the antagonists.

36

Originally posted by Former castleva
Should you also ask whether you need to follow their footsteps in the most strict of manners? Considering how much has improved since-.

Has it really improved or do we live under the false perception that things have improved? :wink:

When did NON-IMA people gain insight into IMA skill and their development, i don’t see any how any outsider to any system/style can improve on it.
The changes have to come from within, not from a 3rd outside party.

Maybe you as a non-IMA person & others here should tell us IMA guys how we can improve on our art & skills.

Honestly looking forward to those improvements and proofs that your way is better in developing IMA skills.

Seeya.

37

Originally posted by Vash
Strength training improves muscular function, including speed and (if the techniques are practiced like they should be) fine motor skills. If technique falters during weight training, two reasons: Decrease in technical practice, or overdevelopment of acting muscles in relation to the antagonists.

IMO, and some might disagree.

Your unarmed skills will not be complete and refined till you have done some weapon training.

Seeya.

38

"Has it really improved or do we live under the false perception that things have improved? "

He,he.I´m not a MA historian either,what I was hinting at had more to do with,say,exercise science (for example) than IMA.

“When did NON-IMA people gain insight into IMA skill and their development, i don’t see any how any outsider to any system/style can improve on it.
The changes have to come from within, not from a 3rd outside party.”

Well,3rd parties are allowed to express ideas,are not we?
I agree that change would ultimately come from within,probably.
As for NON-IMA gaining insight,I believe that´s possible.

“Maybe you as a non-IMA person & others here should tell us IMA guys how we can improve on our art & skills.”

Or maybe not.But as a non-IMA person,my message is to look beyond the dogmas (if there really are any).

"Honestly looking forward to those improvements and proofs that your way is better in developing IMA skills.
"

Now it sounds like as if…Well,I have not made any statements like that (my ways,being better),so I won´t be giving you that proof.I give you props for thinking that way (asking for such etc.).

39

Actually, my ways are far superior to all other methods. EVER.

40

Originally posted by Vash
Actually, my ways are far superior to all other methods. EVER.

Which one is that:

Curl up into a fetal ball behind a heap of smelly brown stuff and hope nobody notices you?? :smiley:
j/k

Acutally I have noticed that Dre-doggx has started similar threads on a variety of MA boards. :wink:

Interesting replies on those threads.

Seey.a