hee hee, i liked the knife work later in the flick.
woliveri, I am curious as to how you think for a moment that he is wrong and what you do is right.
Consider that perhaps what you are doing is incorrect and what he is doing is correct? Or neither.
It is my experience that some circle walking slides into the grip toe first, while other circle walk is heel/toe and yet other styles emphasize total weight throughout the foot on each step (flat footed more or less).
Now baguas not my thing, but I would be very wary of criticising the form of someone who has been practicing for 2x as long as most of our teachers have even been taking air into their lungs.
food for thought and no personal jab intended.
[QUOTE=woliveri;700500]Well, I’m just a Bagua beginner and I’m taught to lift the foot so the sole is flat and set it down by the toe, gripping the ground with the toes. If it’s done right it’s **** hard and works muscles in the foot, calf that you thought you never had.
As nice as this looks it appears the stepping has gone out the window. He looks like he’s having a walk in the park with his heel first walking.
More experienced BG dudes, am I wrong?[/QUOTE]
He definitely seems to be doing it fast and wushu like and the stepping is more like Sun ZhiZhun http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_BGsunzhijun.htm (only much higher).
http://www.plumpub.com/images/VCD4/vcd1369.jpg
Not sure if you should say it’s right or wrong. That’s how they do it in their lineage evidently, or at least for show.
Plus, nobody expects old guys to do their forms right anyway. 
Greetings..
Plus, nobody expects old guys to do their forms right anyway.
AARRRGGHHHHHH… First, old is a state of mind, and.. that guy has a pretty good state of mind.. Second, most “old guys” that have been at this for decades have gone beyond the confines of forms, they have learned the lessons of the forms.. Some of these older guys have forgot more than most of us “know”.. and Third, now what was it? i know there was a third thing.. hmmmm… oh well, remember the first 2, i’m gonna take a nap now, maybe it’ll jog my memory..
Be well…
[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;700531]Greetings..
AARRRGGHHHHHH… First, old is a state of mind, and.. that guy has a pretty good state of mind.. Second, most “old guys” that have been at this for decades have gone beyond the confines of forms, they have learned the lessons of the forms.. Some of these older guys have forgot more than most of us “know”.. and Third, now what was it? i know there was a third thing.. hmmmm… oh well, remember the first 2, i’m gonna take a nap now, maybe it’ll jog my memory..
Be well…[/QUOTE]
It’s not just memory … it’s the physical thing. As people get older they can’t go into lower stances, lower basin and all that. It’s a rare person who can do that even at 60-70, let alone 93!!!
A lot of people learned from very old people, who had hunched backs, couldn’t go low into stances, couldn’t keep their alignment correct, and as a result we have a lot of very bad martial arts.
You do taiji, Bob, right? So where are the old guys doing the stomps and jumps? Most of that from Chen isn’t even in the taiji anymore, let alone finding some old guy doing it. How many old people in the park do snake creeps down with their butt to their foot? Not many, right?
[B]As nice as this looks it appears the stepping has gone out the window. He looks like he’s having a walk in the park with his heel first walking.
More experienced BG dudes, am I wrong?[/B]
Uhh Yes you are:D
i watched that vid a few times over focusing on several points and from my experience(which is a little more than beginner) i have concluded that there is nothing wrong with the stepping of this elder. Yes he seems to be walking in the park,HOWEVER, he has been doing these forms for decades and what elder who has done that for so long doesnt "walk in the park;) ? His walking in the park looks very solid to me. I noticed times when his stepping is slightly heel to toe and other points where his foot lands flat(in his twists and turns) but the rooting is solid in my opinion.
Peace,TWS
This guy really isn’t bad at all, especially for his age. There’s another video of some 90+ year old guy doing a dao form and that guy is doing it much more heel-toe stepping.
But heel-toe stepping isn’t necessarily wrong for bagua. Some Yin lineages do heel to toe stepping.
In tight turns you don’t really want to be doing flat stepping anyway because you put a lot of torque on your knees.
Bottom line is there isn’t just one type of baguazhang. There isn’t just one type of stepping. Just because somebody isn’t doing what you do, doesn’t mean they’re doing it wrong.
Greetings..
You do taiji, Bob, right? So where are the old guys doing the stomps and jumps? Most of that from Chen isn’t even in the taiji anymore, let alone finding some old guy doing it. How many old people in the park do snake creeps down with their butt to their foot? Not many, right?
I’m not sure where you are, but.. visit Central Florida sometime, you will be quite surprised at the quality and quantity of good Taiji.. There are numerous local Taiji players and teachers that are exceptional.. When’s the last time you saw Snake Creeps Down or Low Single Whip in a fight? it is a conditioning posture, the physics and stress on the ligaments are counter productive (yet, i still do them.. shame on me, i know better).. maximum power and efficiency degrades after the pelvis drops below the knee.. hence the saying, “thighs parallel to ground”.. now, you can get quite low and still keep the thighs parallel, but it’s tricky..
Old Yang has spirals, shuffles, FaJing, and subtle stomps.. but, it’s not the appearance of someone’s Taiji that kicks your butt, it’s their understanding of it..
Be well..
[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;700551]Greetings..
I’m not sure where you are, but.. visit Central Florida sometime, you will be quite surprised at the quality and quantity of good Taiji.. There are numerous local Taiji players and teachers that are exceptional.. When’s the last time you saw Snake Creeps Down or Low Single Whip in a fight? it is a conditioning posture, the physics and stress on the ligaments are counter productive (yet, i still do them.. shame on me, i know better).. maximum power and efficiency degrades after the pelvis drops below the knee.. hence the saying, “thighs parallel to ground”.. now, you can get quite low and still keep the thighs parallel, but it’s tricky..
Old Yang has spirals, shuffles, FaJing, and subtle stomps.. but, it’s not the appearance of someone’s Taiji that kicks your butt, it’s their understanding of it..
Be well..[/QUOTE]
Yes, you shouldn’t drop the pelvis below the knee. I guess the question is, is doing the taiji form correctly doing it with the conditioning aspect in mind? Or are you only interested in applications? Guess it depends upon your emphasis.
Anyway, I’m not a very good taiji player, so it doesn’t matter to me.
It was just kindof interesting when I went to the local Yang place and was showing a guy snake creeps down just to explain an application, and he remarked on how ‘low’ I was … and my butt was a full foot above my heel.
BTW I don’t think you need to go that low, it’s just that it was explained to me that the form should be done low.
Footwork
Well guys, that’s why I asked.
I can say this, my teacher of over 30 years practice and his friend again of over 30 years practice don’t forget the basics when they start to walk a little faster.
Look, I think it’s fantastic that the guy’s this old and that fluid/flexible. However, I’ve been in Shanghai for the last 6 months and I have seen some old people do some stuff that most people half their age can’t do.
People here in China work out every day. Every day for at least an hour or more. With our busy schedules in the west it’s no wonder we don’t see more of this kind of flexibilty and fluidness. It’s a choice.
But from my point of view he still seems to be walking incorrectly.
How about Count if he’s out there still. Have any comments?
[QUOTE=woliveri;700604]
But from my point of view he still seems to be walking incorrectly.
How about Count if he’s out there still. Have any comments?[/QUOTE]
??? And you are of his lineage? What’s your lineage, Cheng style? Yin style? Which Cheng style? Which Yin style? Yin Yang Ba Pan Zhang? ???
How can you say he’s doing it wrong unless you’re in his lineage and know how his teachers taught him, and how they were taught, etc.?
You realize there’s not one way of stepping in ‘baguazhang’. There’s not even one martial art called ‘baguazhang’. Muddy wade stepping is NOT done in all baguazhang.
Yin style has heel-toe stepping. They call it Lion Step in some branches. I’m pretty sure Sun style has heel-toe stepping, and it comes from Cheng! I believe this is supposed to be one of those “non-Dong Hai Chuan-descended” Emei branches, so who knows what any of the more specific principles are.
[QUOTE=lunghushan;700612]??? And you are of his lineage? What’s your lineage, Cheng style? Yin style? Which Cheng style? Which Yin style? Yin Yang Ba Pan Zhang? ???
How can you say he’s doing it wrong unless you’re in his lineage and know how his teachers taught him, and how they were taught, etc.?
You realize there’s not one way of stepping in ‘baguazhang’. There’s not even one martial art called ‘baguazhang’. Muddy wade stepping is NOT done in all baguazhang.[/QUOTE]
Ok, Ok, I get it, I get it, I get it… Take it easy lunghushan, have a coke and a smile. I don’t want you to pop a blood vessel.
[QUOTE=woliveri;700642]Ok, Ok, I get it, I get it, I get it… Take it easy lunghushan, have a coke and a smile. I don’t want you to pop a blood vessel.[/QUOTE]
If you think heel-toe is weird you should see crane step … LOL
Greetings..
woliveri: Hey Bill, kudos for you adventure to the motherland.. i suppose you saw that Richard Allen passed away, too bad.. as twisted as he was, he was a strong KungFu advocate.. Master Wong is departing soon and it looks like Jeff will be keeping things going.. iwill be working with Jeff once a week on advanced studies.. a good mix i think.. recent information, new to me, has really impacted my Taiji and internal studies, Rick Barrett’s seminar opened new territory relative to how the body functions… Good stuff.. If you’re interested check out some of my posts relative to the Connective Tissue System.. Anyway, i know this has little to do with the topic, but i just wanted to say hey!!.. i simply can’t devote more time to new endeavors like Bagua, there is still so much to learn in Taiji and QiGong.. 17 years later and i’m just beginning to understand how little i really know, go figure..
Be well..
Richard Allen
Hi Bob,
No, I’m sorry, I did not know of Richard’s passing. It is sad. As you said he was somewhat twisted but in a laughable sort of way. He always kept thing lively at the temple and Master Chan never quite knew what would come out of his mouth next. I’m sorry he has left us. Did he have an accident or some other problem?
Well, when I came to China I was mostly interested in Qigong but here there are few people who are practicing much less teaching. Every time I talk to someone about Qigong I get a big story either about someone will cheat me or some other blah blah blah. In Shanghai as I’ve found so far, not too many people know about qigong or know what’s out there. There are some awesome, awesome Qigong practices it’s just a matter of finding them. Perhaps as time passes I’ll run into someone who will change my mind.
I was actually going to start Xin(g) Yi here but just before I started I met the Bagua guy. I actually never had an interest before but now I’m all into it. It is d.a.m.n hard to walk and step correctly even without hands, then add hands and wow…
Last weekend all my teacher’s Bagua buddies showed up and you can see the differences between each of the “brothers”. My teacher learned Taiji before as well as Xing Yi and likes Bagua the best. His body is not as flexible but he’s got like tendon strength and serious jing. But his other KF Brother was soft, and still another was maybe inbetween. Very interesting.
I’m also finding there’s a lot to learn here. So, barring any issues I’m going to try to suck up as much as I can for as long as I can. I go to the park everyday and train from 1 to 2, maybe 3 hours depending on how I feel and who I’m with.
I’m glad you’re keeping with the Taiji. I know there’s a big group there. I heard the Wu guy was coming back. Hey, you know Mike Roberts? He said he’s been training with that guy too. Mike also loves Bagua but hasn’t been involved for a while.
Ok, all for now. Feel free to email me any time or PM me and I’ll give you my email address.
Glad to hear you’re well.
i would still try to pick up some xing yi if you get the opportunity. i have seen people that know both and they are very good fighters. the styles and fighting philosophies are very complimentary.
BruceSteveRoy,
Yes, you are correct. From what I can see from my point of view Xingyi seems to be quicker to apply martial techniques (in learning time) than bagua. I don’t know, that’s me looking in from the outside.
“PLymouth i dont see bagua as some spectator sport or performance art. Those of us who have been into and have practiced the internal arts for a while have gotten past the “wow dude thats COOL Lookin” phase. We look at “Content” “fajin” etc. and to date, that is the best representation of bagua i have ever seen. given that this man is 93 at the time of the vid makes all the difference with me.”
Well Luo Dexiu is my teacher so perhaps I’ve come to develop a preference for something better. BTW I’ve been in baguazhang for quite some time now. If it’s the best you’ve seen, you need to see more.
Anywhere I can download this video so I can put it on my MP4 player?
Thanks,
[QUOTE=woliveri;701187]Anywhere I can download this video so I can put it on my MP4 player?
Thanks,[/QUOTE]
I’ll upload it to my yahoo briefcase: Link
You will need to have a Yahoo ID to access it. It is free.
There will be two copies in Divx Format: 33Mb and 16mb.
And one in mp4 format: 15mb
I won’t have broadband til later today so check between 3pm-5pm Pacific Time.