huh…
are we really trying to argue bout weather Bak Hsing/Buk Sing is its own branch now…
seems a little silly,
like my Sigung said, “we don’t need to argue”
Pce.
So you decide whats silly and whats not? :rolleyes:
Its only been recently that the Buksing guys started getting more vocal about being all that different and that. It just seems that every time a buksing person comes on, they seem to want to be so different to other CLF. My question is, if you then want to be so different, why still call it CLF>
Sure I see the differences, but in the same breath I see differences between all our CLF. Our Lee Koon Hung Choy Lay Fut looks different to Frank’s Lau bun CLF etc etc. Heck, we’ve even had people come on this site and claimed our line uses the wrong Characters for Hung Sing, as we should be Chan Family or something else.
Point is, this division doesn’t seem to be that healthy.
My CLF is different to CLFNole’s CLF, weven though we are bothers (and I’ve learned allot from him). My experience is different to his, and my body is different to his.
But its still CLF, isn’t it?
I think I should go register a style called Laam Sing CLF. :rolleyes:
SATORI,
I DON’T LOOK AT HOW YOU DO THINGS, EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS UNIQUE IN THEIR OWN MOVEMENT.
LET ME CLARIFY MYSELF WHEN I SAY I SEE THE SAME THINGS.
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I am looking for movements in the form, not how they’re done. in my opinion, because buk sing stems from hung sing, i am looking into your forms to see elements that are from the fut san hung sing kwoon. NOT HOW YOU USE IT DURING FIGHTING
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Even my generation of Hung Sing doesn’t look like Lau Bun’s students. So things will always change over time. but you can still tell that we are of Lau Bun’s lineage.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=850281
Kung Fu Magazine Forums - Reply to Topic -
we all have our our own concepts of fighting. Most of the masters from the lau bun lineage were some pretty tough mo fo’s, because the gung fu we used was developed in the U.S. we have taken on a different look and feel than some of our other hung sing brothers. Hell, even Hung Sing people don’t look like each other…why? because there is NO standard…each school develops their OWN WAY.
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until you come out to san fran to meet with us, you couldn’t say what we are looking for or not. i will be the first to say, i’ve seen other hung sing people and were like WTF?
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when i see buk sing, i see the techniques. NOT how their done. I’m looking for the connection. not the execution. i have my own execution, and most of the time don’t agree with others execution, even at times with buk sing. why? because we are all different. no fighting is exactly alike.
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now how much do you really know about Lun Chee and what he believed or thought about hung sing and buk sing? the reason i ask, is because i KNOW that he completely supported hung sing, especially in singapore, and has actually verbally recorded the CLF history as he recalls it. He specifically requested not to disclose what was in it while he alive. How do i know…just trust me!
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Yes, Buk Sing and Hung Sing are different. why, because we all separately develop our gung fu. believe i know this and understand this but look past it every time. because how you use it doesn’t identify you to a specific lineage. its not that simple. yes, in my school we do things our way, just like you. but when you do come to sf, you will realize how close we really are.
what other TRUE blooded hung sing have you exchanged hands with? there are not that many around. not true, only hung sing material, no other styles. in many cases, some schools have mixed other styles in their curriculum. fortunately for the lau bun lineage, we kept it pure.
7)…i’ll be back gotta take the lady to work.:o
hey,
k guys, I’m really not interested in this conversation anymore, seems played out. Your obviously both entitled to your own opinions after many years of hard work in CLF, like I said I’m really not interested in arguing, it seems silly to me,
I never questioned the quality or validity of your methods,
Wish you all the best,
There’s no need to argue here.
personally, you all know I’m Hung Sing-Lau Bun lineage and dang well proud of it.
But, i thought we’d all be more open to discussing something as simple as “your roots are in hung sing.”
Part of me wants to ask you guys if you are so different, then where did you get your Choy Lee Fut from? (don’t get upset it’s just a question.)
the other half of me is like, Buk Sing doesn’t move like us, but they apply their gung fu from what i’ve seen very very similar to what the lau bun lineage does.
now you can say how can i say that? well, we have never interacted with ANY other school in any other system. Our gung fu was and still is developed by us for us (fubu) Ours is the first and oldest gung fu school in america over 82 years old…so yeah, i guess i can say without a doubt that what we traditionally do i’ve seen the buk sing lineage do.
NOW, i want to quote something written about Grand Elder Lun Chee…this comes from the 3rd annual Celebration booklet from the Singapore Hung Sing Kwoon…
"ELDER LUN STARTED LEARNING GONG FU FROM TAM SARM AT AGE 14. IN A RECENT INTERVIEW WITH THE CHINESE NEWSPAPER, LIAN HER WAN BAO, IN SINGAPORE, HE CLAIMED THAT IT WAS THE THRILL OF LION DANCING THAT ACTUALLY ATTRACTED HIM TO JOIN THE “HONG SHENG TAM KOON” WHEN HE WAS A BOY. THE IRONY OF IT WAS THAT THE MARTIAL ARTS SCHOOL HE JOINED DID NOT HAVE ANY LION DANCING LESSONS UNTIL A MUCH LATER STAGE. HE HAD BY THEN FOUND HIS NEW LOVE-FUT GAR ZHENG CHONG, THE MOST ORIGINAL NAME OF THE HONG SHENG MARTIAL ARTS WHICH WAS TO BE KNOWN WORLDWIDE LATER AS CHOI LEI FUT."
NOW THE FOLLOWING IS INTERESTING TO ME AS WELL IN REGARDS TO THIS DISCUSSION…
[B]" AS A MATTER OF FACT, ELDER LUN CHEE RATTLED OFFELL KNOWN NAMES OF OTHER HONG SHENG MASTERS LIKE LAU CHUNG, LAU YAU, WONG TOW, AND CHONG TAI AND OTHERS WHO WOULD COME BY OCCASIONALLY TO VISIT HIS TEACHER (TAM SAM). ELDER LUN CHEE SAID THAT HE HIMSELF BENEFITTED MUCH FROM THEIR VISITS BECAUSE HIS TEACHER WOULD FREQUENTLY REQUEST THESE ELDERS TO STAY AND HELPED COACH HIS (TAM SAMS) STUDENTS."
[/B]
" TAM SAM NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH HIS SENIORS OR ELDERS ON THIS NAME CHANGE AS HE WAS A TRUE-BLOODED HONG SHENG MAN AND HE TAUGHT THE HONG SHENG FIGHTING ART."
"BUT OF COURSE, LIKE MANY OF THE HONG SHENG MASTERS, TAM SAM DID NOT REST ON HIS LAURELS BUT CONTINUED TO EXPLORE ON THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAYS OF USING THE HONG SHENG FIGHTING TECHNIQUES. HE CONSTANTLY EXPLORED WITH HONG SHENG MASTERS LIKE LAU CHUNG, LAU YAU, WONG TOW, AND THE REST, ON THE FIGHTING TECHNIQUES THEY EMPLOYED IN REAL LIFE COMBAT. IT LED HIM TO DEVELOP THE POWERFUL CHUP KUEN (LEOPARD PUNCH) INTO LIN WAN CHUP KUEN-SUCCESSIVE PUNCHES THAT BECAME THE HALLMARK OF BUK SING KWOON. "
“ELDER LUN CHEE EMPHASIZED THAT HIS LATE TEACHER TAM SAM DID NOT INVENT NEW FIGHTING TECHNIQUES, OR STARTED A NEW STYLE. HE SIMPLY REDEFINED WHAT HE WAS TAUGHT AND SHARPENED ITS EFFECTIVENESS. TO THIS END, OTHER HONG SHENG MASTERS HAD ALSO MADE EQUALLY USEFUL CONTRIBUTIONS.”
SEE, WE ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO FEEL BUK SING ‘IS’ HUNG SING, WITH THEIR OWN FLAVOR.
BUT I DIGRESS.
I will interject one more time to say I have also read the above mentioned quote some years ago, it is published on Master Vince’s buksing.com website. I read it 4 maybe even 5 years ago and am well aware of it.
This is not exactly the version of history I have coming from either my sigung or Sifu who both knew Lun Jee personally, As frank has often said I defer to the version of history I inherted the debate doens’t mean that much to me
I’m not exactly sure what the debate is about to be honest. We play our CLF different, we have a different name, it was Lun Jee that had my Sifu promise to call his school the Bak Hsing Kwoon, and so I will as well and as you highlighted the original name of the style was fut gar, hence the Bak Hsing Kwoon Fut Gar style, one way or the other it doesn’t matter to me,
I have stressed that we have a common ancestry we are sister systems and the way my Sigung (a student of both Lun Jee and Tam Fei Pang) related our history “Bak Hsing tech. is clearly different” My sifu has always said Lun Jee emphasized unity and so have I,
I don’t hear Frank calling himself LKH nor do I here Eddie calling himself Ng family Xiong Sing, the arguments seem a little trivial,
as I said for us what matters is the method of fighting, the forms mean nothing to me and I rarely practice them any more, perhaps that is the difference. I might add that I have 6 northern Shaolin sets and a litany of northern weapons, which I don’t see taught in other CLF schools,
difference is just that, the universe is a manifestation of the myriad, the 10,000 things but they all arise from the Tao equally, there is always unity in deversity…
but as Prisig puts it the real question isn’t, stature or status but QUALITY, if you have quality in your gung fu you need be unconcerned with such trivial things but grateful for your blessing to happened upon a treasure like that in your life, Chaung Tzu says the enlightened man has no need of comparison…
As my Sifu always says, a full barrel makes no noise, probably why I talk so much, I still have a lot to learn
Train hard,
Now Thats Good.
I Mean The Letting Go Of The Forms Concept.
I Did That A Long Time Ago. It Was My Own Light Bulb Turning On At That Time.
I Have Been Focusing On The Fighting Side Of Things Since I’ve Been Teaching.
When I Was Young And Hardcore, We Sparred All The Time. No Gloves With The Mindset If You Got Hit It Wasn’t My Fault. It Was Yours.
I Am Completely On The Same Page With You, How We Apply Our Clf Is The Most Important. I Often Tell My Students Who A Performer’s Clf Will Look So Pretty, But A Fighters Clf Will Be Ugly. Brutal. And The Student Doesn’t Care If He Looks Pretty.
Our School’s Philosophy Has Always Been, Shut Up And Show Me!
“difference is just that, the universe is a manifestation of the myriad, the 10,000 things but they all arise from the Tao equally, there is always unity in deversity…
but as Prisig puts it the real question isn’t, stature or status but QUALITY, if you have quality in your gung fu you need be unconcerned with such trivial things but grateful for your blessing to happened upon a treasure like that in your life, Chaung Tzu says the enlightened man has no need of comparison…”
SORRY, I AM NOT THAT SPIRITUAL. LOL.
I AM OF THE TYPE THAT SAYS, PHUCK WHAT YOU’RE SAYING, PROVE IT TO ME.
IF YOU SAY YOU CAN KICK MY BUTT, DON’T TALK ABOUT IT “BE” ABOUT IT!
ITS FUNNY, CAUSE MY SIFU DOES THE GUZHENG, AND THE GENERAL DAVE LACEY ASKED ME, HOW’S THAT GONNA HELP WITH HIS KWA SOW CHOP"…LOL.
BUK SING’S BLOOD IS FILLED WITH FIGHING GENES…
BUT YOU’RE STILL ORIGINALLY HUNG SING:p:D
Sibak Dave Lacey also says on his website,
“the Buck Sing system has been the source of my martial and spiritual enlightenment’s in life”
For me I try to balance myself, thats all. I’ve said to someone who cracked a joke about my philosophizing that I don’t believe in religion, only in hitting people…"
humility is an important part of this way of life, thats my take on it,
just another aspect. I have an article written in english & chinese by Jun Chui Yuen, Lun Jee’s disciple it reads more like a text on Taosim than on fighting, I gave my sifu the chinese version to read and he said the same thing, it was al about yin and yang (chop) and form and emptiness. Tam Sam was a calligrapher and obviously a deep thinker too,
Its not fair to start something and then back away from it when you decide you had enough 
We have had many of these discussions over the last 10 years here on KFM forum.
It just seems that the division between the various CLF styles has grown much bigger in the past year or two, and it seems that the buksing people are more determined to insist that they are different.
All respect to them and anyone.
I remember that Frank once told some story that some CLF master saw him at a tournament and commented on his tattoo that says Hung Sing CLF? Maybe Frank could fill us in about that.
I just like to call it CLF.
Satori, don’t worry, we aren’t fighting. Debating is healthy, and we are all mature adults here.
well, at a tournament, Fu Hang Ng and i were talking. he noticed i have “hung sing choy lee fut” in chinese tattooed on my forearm.
he took his two fingers and covered up my hung sing and said that all he saw was CLF.
but, i have always felt that was because he believes we all come from Chan Heung.
we can all only be called CLF with no animosity when all 3 lineages blend into one.
eddie, satori is correct that he has the right to believe what he believes. he’s smart, he said something to the effect…this is what i was told, so i’ll believe that. he doesn’t have to believe any of us at all.
but, i agree with you eddie…buk sing has in one way attempted to completely separate themselves with hung sing…and thats ok.
but, this really gets me wondering though. elder lun chee still called what he learned “fut Gar Zheng Zhong” said it later was called CLF…while chan heung was calling his gung fu choy lee fut, we weren’t.
yeah, clf is definately going thru the changes…even so far to have CLF style wu shu. 
I didn’t say Satori was wrong in any way, and I didn’t question his sifu or style elders. I’m just posting my comments and opinion on the matter.
I’m also just questioning the manner in which Satori is trying to bring his point across, kind of like ‘I made up my mind, and you opinions doesn’t count”. Well, that’s how it seems to me.
We are all just here to chat casually about our style (which we all love so much). In the process, we end up learning from other posters. That’s why I love this forum so much. I’ve learned things on here that are just so valuable. Usually this only happens once a few members get riled up a little. Usually the sparks needs to fly for all the good content to come out, but that’s all part of the fun. And worth the arguments.
Now, I’m hoping Satori will challenge me to a fight, pay for my ticket to Canada, and all those things…. So that I can go to Canada and check out the cool Canadian chicks. I’ll get Satori drunk so that he cant fight me, and then I’ll zoom into his Canadian sisters 
Hi Frank, Satori, everybody else. I haven’t posted in a long time cuz I got sick of arguing on the internet and e-thugs and everybody claiming their history and whatnot is true. Everyone is responsible for something at one time or another but I hold no grudges and I love my CLF family. 
Eddie hooked me up with this thread to get my opinion and it is this, flat out no-bull**** and honest.
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My Sifu always told me CLF is CLF, sure some might look different but it’s how individuals play the techs, and what they teach their students. Of course Buk Sing and Hung Sing, Chan Family will look different because the teachers are different, their teachers all had their own influences and their respective styles!
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My CLF is my personal martial art. I have my own influences; I’ve done boxing and trained in MMA for a year (focusing mostly on kick/thai boxing and regular boxing) and my CLF is heavily influenced by western style striking too. At the end of the day I still call it CLF because it’s what I do, it’s a paradigm I base everything else off of.
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Forms & Fighting. These two are different things and should not be used against each other in internet debates etc . . . “our school does more fighting than forms blah blah blah.” My opinion is, too many forms is a waste of time and energy. I like the Buk Sing approach the most.
But just because I’m a Hung Sing man doesn’t mean I’m a form freak, I mean, hell I haven’t done a form in a long time actually (I’ve been working mostly on posture and control, and fluidity/combos). I’m a decent fighter, not amazing, not horrendous, and I’m don’t like doing massive amounts of forms. Please don’t act as if ALL Hung Sing guys are into way more forms than Buk Sing or other CMAs.
That said I like doing a few forms, my favorite is Sup Jee, Fu Pau Kuen (i forgot that! must relearn), Crane, and a few others. Great forms, good for exercising/conditioning while developing speed, flexibility, and polishing technique fluidity (IMO, what forms should be for).
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CLF/Martial Arts as a whole must evolve and change. Being static is being backwards; CMAs were made in times of turmoil and our skills should reflect that, even if we are not fighting in battles. We should make our art better with each generation, that’s how we stay ahead of the game.
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Your CLF will look different than your Sifu’s and Sihings, even if slightly. My CLF looks different from Sifu and my current Sihing that I train with. Find what style and flair suits you! Everybody has a different body type. I fight differently than a 6’2" guy, or a broad heavy 250lb guy.
Much love and respect to my CLF brothers around the world. We have in our hands such a cool system and we should strive to learn more from each other instead of bickering about whether my branch produces better fighters than yours (I have seen good and crappy from all branches).
-Miluo
That’s what im saying.
Perhaps Tam Sam’s CLF was still just CLF, but his own flavor, based on his own background and body type and personality.
According to DFW’s book (speaking of Tam Sam) “ His school bore the name Siu Bak Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut Club. The name was too long to be spoken comfortably, so it was changed to Bak Sing Choy Lay Fut”.
Our school is lam fei hung sing CLF, but you guys can call us Lam Sing
ok that last part was a bit silly
hey satori,
that was cool.
i have a question, most of the vids you’ve posted are all very linear in movement.
is most your attacks in this manner, or do you guys ever go to the outside?
In our lineage we have our linear stuff, but sifu has always stressed bout moving on the outside and be where he can’t see you.
one of my si-sook gungs told me that we have the sup character which tells me about the linear movement, but he placed the plum blossom pattern over the sup character which explains out circular outside movements as well.
we emphasize directness
but
have the other techniques as well
high inside, high outside,
low inside, low outside,
Personally I don’t care for swinging movements(except to finish), to easy to stop hit with a chop choi
yeah i guess.
but it all depends on whether or not a person understands the techniques and know that you would never use a circular movement while your opponent is fresh.
chop choys are my favorite fast strikes, but i truly love the power of the sow choy.
you know, Lau Chung (i believe) or it was another Hung Sing master that actually broke someone’s neck with a sow choy.
My brother Hong sow choi’d a guy so hard his head hit the floor before his feet did. Personally I think chop choi is much more powerful & devistating than sow if played with the proper ging.
" In fighting when yang interposing punching is is used, I will continually attack the rival by bypassing the rival and turning my hands into yin interposing punching if the rival uses splitting, pulling or pressing. When yin sweeping punching (sow choi) I will counter attack or attack by turning my hands into yang throwing (chop choi) punching if resistance is encountered. These have fully agreed with the meaning of “yang will grow if yin is in peak” and " yang will grow if yin is vanishing"
In kinematic theory, the openning and closing of yin and yang infighting will cause the arms and legs to move. Supported by breathing and pronouncing of "xu" "ga" "huo" "di" and "yi" it leads to the vibrations of our zang-fu organs. There for our body will become strong from the inside to the outside,or force power and blood will become abundant. This is the highest aim for practicing Kung fu today. (Powerful & Gentle)
… Choy Lee Fat school originates from Shaolin. Shaolin is divided into Southern and northern schools, southern is firm but not flexible, northern is flexible but not firm… Choy Lee Fat’s punching is between southern and northern school. It features long bridges and broad road. Mater of Bak Sing Tam Sam changed broad road into narrow road. Thus it becomes more flexible. It seeks steadiness from moving and this punching is extremely difficult. It is referred to as “gentle” in secret.
… If blocking, splitting punching and intercepting is met in fighting you do not confront toughly, but take the opportunity to attack again by fighting methods of slinking, sneaking excreting and striking. This is gentle in fighting methods. If you do not slink or sneak you try to break thru the rivals defending line and confront him straight on with your strong power. Supported by the yin-yang turning force of the, waist, hip, shoulder, arm etc.. This is powerful infighting methods, In fighting we shall master the following: we shall be gentle when gentle is needed: we shall be powerful when powerful is needed both gentle and powerful will be used simultaneously. This is the meaning or “truth and deceit” in the Bak Sing method."
Master Tsang Chui Yu (Jun Chui Yu) 3rd generation Bak Sing and disciple of Lun Jee
“Discussion again on the secrets of choi lee fat’s (Beisheng/bak sing) punching”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3HZNOocLno
Pce.
…
ex-academics