Hi i just recently read one of your posts and you are the only wing chun practitioner i have seen out of the thousands who acknowledges that it doesnt matter if you can punch at 9 hits a second one powerful one is what does the deed. so to my two questions
a)how do you generate your power in wing chun, is it internal? is it from the tendons? surely its not from pure speed… maybe you use intent?
b)where can i purchase/make one of those focus shields that measure the force of the punch i have been looking for one everywhere.
To answer your question as to where the power comes from in the Wing Chun punch here goes:
***[a)how do you generate your power in wing chun, is it internal? is it from the tendons? surely its not from pure speed… maybe you use intent?]
The power in Wing Chun is generated by your structure. It is more from your bones then anything else but many different parts play a role. In an ideal example you would use your stance to generate power from the ground up, through the legs and waist then into your arms and our your fist/hand. You can argue whether Wing Chun utilizes internal power or not and will get answers advocating both sides of the coin. IMHO, Wing Chun is more of an internal system than not. Wing Chun relies on relaxation and the redirection of your opponents energy to be effective. The force of your punch is also augmented by the force of your opponent. What I mean is A attacks B. B redirects and punches to A but A is moving towards B so the force of B’s punch is multiplied by adding the momentum that A gives to it.
The strength of your tendons can come into play in the area of extensions. Stong tendons will allow you to exert more force then weak ones and will aide in keeping the arm and elbow from hyperextending. Many Wing Chun people will state that power comes from the elbow, and this is correct. However the elbow is a part of the structure I referred to above.
Speed is another factor which can add power. Simple physics will reveal that two objects of the same mass moving and colliding with another object will have roughly equal power. However is one is moving faster then the power will be greater.
As to intent this is an interesting point. When I perform a technique it is my intent to use my opponents energy. I may want to hit him but how I do that is reliant on what he or she gives me to work with. Let me make one clarification concernign my view of Wing Chun; Wing Chun does not meet force with force. However, each technique has the potential for being an attack. Taking the Taun Sau for example; If my opponent provides mor force then I can deal with using my structure then I give way to this force. If the force is light and I can easily deal with it without resorting to muscular power then I “crush” his force and strike forward my Taun becoming an attack.
***[b)where can i purchase/make one of those focus shields that measure the force of the punch i have been looking for one everywhere]
I regret that I do not know where you can get these or even if they sell them anymore. I bought mine several years ago and I don’t even know if the company is in business anymore. They used to have several different products, one you could place on a heavy bag, I bought the wall model.
***[btw what lineage of wing chun do you train]
Like Caine said in one fo the Kung Fu movies when asked what styles he taught, “I do them all” LOL
Seriously here is my background:
Sifu Roy Undem/Augustine Fong>Seattle
Sifu Keith Kernsprecht/Leung Ting>Germany
Sifu Allan Fong/Leung Ting>Staten Island, NY
Sifu Chung Kwok Chow>NYC(Currently Training with)
In addition I have had the opportunity to train with members of the William Cheung and Moy Yat lineages. I have also worked out with a student of Eddie Chong and had some interesting discussions with members of other lineages.
I am relatively new to Wing Chun, but my sifu always drills into me to use proper structure, as that is where the power comes from…basically what Sihing said…good stuff, man.
IMHO, the source of WC power is the ground. However, I train my body to be able to establish a connection between my opponent and the ground so that I can use this source. Without the body structure, the ground cannot be used and more physical traits (muscle) acts as a poor substitute. The ground acts as a stable base or foundation and allows me the leverage to use my whole body as a wedge into the oponent. Otherwise it would be like trying to hit someone while standing on a skateboard. In my lineage, we train the ability to link up the joints of the body to receive and issue force from the first day.
Issuing power and receiving external force requires that the body stay relaxed and is linked up properly to either send the force into the ground or transfer the force from the ground. My body acts as a two way street between my opponent and the ground. My intention is what controls the flow of traffic.
I don’t train my arms to hit faster, I train them to move more efficiently so that I need minimal effort to maintain the correct alignment for optimal force transference. I want to hit with my entire body not just hit with a fast arm. Body structure is a start. Next is using the correct timing and spatial position relative to my opponent. The WC tools themselves are just ways to express the power we have trained.
The more I train the more I believe that we share many similarities with the ‘internal’ arts (Taiji, Hsing Yi, and Bagua). The definition of ‘internal’ is a whole different thread, but I believe that the source of power is the same. The only difference between these arts and ours is the principles that govern applying force in combat nad the manner in which it is expressed in the body. The source, namely the ground, is still the same.
its great that you answered a lot of it makes sense its like i believe the only thing i was surprised with was that you both mentioned the ground, by this do you mean how we would use “rooting” or “grounding” like in tai chi ???/
thanks a lot again btw
Grounding/Rooting is a very common term in Chinese martial arts. We all share more or less the same physical shape and structure (1 head, 2 arms, and legs, spinal column etc.). The differences lie in the exact proportions.
For example, I may have shorter legs than you but my arms might be longer and my shoulders broader. This will affect what we each will have to adjust and align to connect with the ground and the opponent. That is why we each have to do the work in developing our body structure and sensitivity.
Once rooted, you are using the earth as something to brace against and push off of. That’s why I said if one doesn’t have the root, it’s like standing on a skateboard.
If rooted, your feet are pushing into the ground but the ground is also pushing back onto your feet. Aligning the body allows this force to go through the body and out through the bridges.
Any external force received will affect one’s structure somehow since it stays inside of the body rather than going straight to the ground. Likewise, when hitting, the power is all in the upper torso, shoulders, and arms.
Any martial art that involves controlling the opponent’s center of gravity has some way of describing controlling our own center of gravity first. The names and desriptions may differ, but the general method to align the body is the same. The important thing is to find a good Sifu who knows how to explain and show this to you.
IMHO, these are fundamental things that affect one’s entire approach to the martial arts. By understanding these mechanics, it’s possible to observe other martial arts and see how they are generating their power.
dave fine reply as usual.
i just thought i would add acceleration. most people hit with more of a throwing action. so when they hit there oponent on contact the anurchia (sp?) of the person slows down the punch and turns it into a push causing the person to move which means that the person goes with the punch(bruce lee’s 1inch punch). hence going with the person in lap sao as to move them you have to brake the anurchia of your opponent to move him. like a car you dont run up to a hit and charge it you stand there and push until it starts to move then you can use one finger once it is moving.but the punch is not supposed to move them they are supposed to drop right there. if you accelerate through the punch you brake the anurchia of the person which means that they stand there and the punch goes into them. that is one of the reasons why we learn to punch the wall bag instead of a hanging bag. a hanging bag causes people to push at the end in order to move it but with the bag you are practicing to accerlerate into the bag to penertrate the bag.
force= mass x distance x accerleration?
i get told it all the time but i only went to yr10 so i dont know the formula but hopefully someone can tell us
Thats the speed of light squared. Your punches can’t approach that. Nothing can reach it, except light. And the mass is constant. How are you applying that equation here?
It’s inevitable that F=m*a is always brought up when the topic of hitting power is discussed. The force vectors of the human body are very complicated and these discussions often turn ugly and technical. Let’s not forget that we can’t just talk abot Force. We have to talk about centers of gravity, kinetic and potential energy, momentum, etc. and most people tend to throw out vague references to equations without knowing the full ramifications that these discussions can lead to.
My instructor used to quote this to us all the time, to try and get us to move faster.
E (energy)= M (mass)x C(speed)(squared)
The faster you go, the more potential energy there is (on contact).
dzu,
You are correct, the variables are too numerous to list, the point I was trying to make was, if punching slow and of a lighter weight, one will not be able to generate the kind of force wanted in a hard contact technique.
THEN, there is the question of whether you are rooted or not and…oh, boy… the variables…
Actually that formula is this:
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 * M * V(squared)
Kinetic Energy is the energy of motion. E=mc(squared) is the energy at the speed of light.
Energy over a period of time is Force. So for all the math geeks out there, that’s the derivative of KE/dt (holding mass constant), or :
F = M * A
In other words, the same amount of energy over a shorter time would be more force.
I think that’s right, it has been a while since I had physics…
Swimming is not a sport, it’s something you do to keep from drowning.
Fighting is not a sport, it’s something you do to keep from dying.
WOrk is equal to the change in KE. A change in energy over time, or the rate at which work is done is the power. According to the Backstreet Boys, anyway.
my friends power for speed you can find in K-ENERGY , allso you can find in toner in acopunture texnic , but speed in wing chun must find in retro texnic to animal instict. cose wing chun is animals texnic style. - just my opinion and just friendly tiger_1
sorry if i started a maths debate. sihing 73 put everything else in his post so i only noticed the acceleration wasnt there( no offence dave).
put i didnt mean speed it is the acceleration in the punch not the speed, by that i mean not how fast the punch is but it is at a constant state of acceleration
