ATTN Lee Chiang Po

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

[QUOTE=goju;963295]im talking about an actual known master not just some “guy” i want names like wing lam or gary lam or tat mau wong or shinyu gushi or morio higgaonna[/QUOTE]

as if any big name guys actually still fought themselves…

Lucas has got it half right (overwhelmingly choice a), but as custom dictates big names have their students/reps fight on their behalf.

The true goings on are definitely more friendly than what you’re daydreaming about.
“A” drops by “B”'s gym/school to see what his program’s about, “B” gives an overview and if “A” still has any questions he can pressure test with “B”'s student “C”. If “A” or “C” step it up in the course of the playing, it’s on and they see what’s what.

I mean, you talk trash about someone who fights in the ring and then d!cktuck when called on it, don’t expect to get respected. Talk trash about someone who fights in the ring, then step up when called on it, and you’ll earn respect even if you lose - unless of course you’re a complete d!ck after the fact (not mentioning any names). Of course, if you win you’ve earned the right to open your mouth.

On the other hand, this isn’t Count Dante, you don’t show up at someone’s school with swords threatening to shut them down. Respect is a two-way street.

If you’re just looking for us to name drop every kung fu school we’ve ever worked out with and who all we thought were garbage, you’re not getting it here - at least from me. I’m not here to instigate trash talk, just respond to it, and i got friends at some of those gyms who i would never want to disrespect like that, whether they read this site or not.

EDIT: PS- quit trying to drop the names of san shou dudes. San shou was ripped on by tcma guys right alongside all the other sport fighters. They tout the name of Cung Le when they wanna say something’s effective, then turn around and bash him for being a high school wrestler with some TKD, saying he’s not traditional. San Shou was used by the TCMA community as they saw fit and when it didn’t make certain federation people tons of money, it was left to rot on the vine. I’m from one of the old big 7 san shou gyms in the US. lkfmdc is coach at another. The Boston guys lurk. Sheeley (Ohio) & Altman (Texas now Cali) both post on another board. Do you think any san shou guy’s gonna say “ah what we do sux, it’s just sport, the ring stuff’s the real stuff”?
Really?

22

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;963306]I’ve done this. Even have footage when I challenged Emin Boztepe back in the day. Fact is, it’s not right to do that. It was wrong of me. Everyone should be free to conduct their business and seminars unobstructed.

Those that want to stake a legit claim about their skill go out. Those that want the reputation without spilling sweat and blood talk.

True.[/QUOTE]

lol i think everyone knows by now how i fell about boztepe:D i will leave it at that

23

i dont know what you think about him. do tell :smiley:

24

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;963307]as if any big name guys actually still fought themselves…

Lucas has got it half right (overwhelmingly choice a), but as custom dictates big names have their students/reps fight on their behalf.

The true goings on are definitely more friendly than what you’re daydreaming about.
“A” drops by “B”'s gym/school to see what his program’s about, “B” gives an overview and if “A” still has any questions he can pressure test with “B”'s student “C”. If “A” or “C” step it up in the course of the playing, it’s on and they see what’s what.

I mean, you talk trash about someone who fights in the ring and then ****tuck when called on it, don’t expect to get respected. Talk trash about someone who fights in the ring, then step up when called on it, and you’ll earn respect even if you lose - unless of course you’re a complete d!ck after the fact (not mentioning any names). Of course, if you win you’ve earned the right to open your mouth.

On the other hand, this isn’t Count Dante, you don’t show up at someone’s school with swords threatening to shut them down. Respect is a two-way street.

If you’re just looking for us to name drop every kung fu school we’ve ever worked out with and who all we thought were garbage, you’re not getting it here - at least from me. I’m not here to instigate trash talk, just respond to it, and i got friends at some of those gyms who i would never want to disrespect like that, whether they read this site or not.[/QUOTE]

but thats the point im getting at theres **** talking from boths sides but no one ever does any thing about it besides point to clips of kids slapping each other in their back yards as proof of this art or that art not working

point is none of the tma bashers have or will go"cross hands" with tma stylist of worth and none of the mma bashers who practice tma will go spar with a known fighter

25

[QUOTE=Lucas;963309]i dont know what you think about him. do tell :D[/QUOTE]

how can i put this politely:D

…guys a ****in fraud lol
i dont mean to stir the pot so if the mods delte this i understand just my views on the guy

26

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;963307]

Talk trash about someone who fights in the ring, then step up when called on it, and you’ll earn respect even if you lose - unless of course you’re a complete d!ck after the fact (not mentioning any names).
[/QUOTE]

hehehe

:eek:

27

[QUOTE=goju;963310]
point is none of the tma bashers have or will go"cross hands" with tma stylist of worth and none of the mma bashers who practice tma will go spar with a known fighter[/QUOTE]

this statement is patently false.
without dropping names, just look at some of the places some of us have come from.
my ma experience comes from TCMA (prior to sanshou), so does Ray’s, so does lkfmdc, even Knifefighter.
that’s the environment we came from, working out with well respected people in that environment, i can guarantee you we know what we’re talking about.

i also don’t think you’re understanding where we’re coming from when we say what we say.
personally, i’m not saying TCMA is bad.
I’m saying guys that come from a tcma background that talk trash about sport fighters for being “sport” and not “street”, who refuse to jump in there and show their stuff, definitely don’t have “it”, and any talk by said individuals blowing up themselves or their capabilities is purely m@sterbation.

28

hey goju, you should be like that guy johnny from that jet li movie ‘the master’ and start a reality tv show where you go around and issue challenges to masters!

ill pay to watch it

29

[QUOTE=Lucas;963286]
no kungfu guys fight mma. thats true. neither do bjj guys, karate guys, muay thai guys, etc. mma guys fight mma. [/QUOTE]

Where do Kung Fu guys do their thing? And what is it that they do when they get together to do it?

If I remember correctly, its gathered into a taped up auditorium mad early, watch a lion dance, start kids forms, move into weapons form… push hands happening in ring 2 and 3… internal forms start up. Weapons forms. Maybe 4 or 5 hours later what’s being called full contact fighting happens under very regulated and padded conditions. Fight-finishing contact, the thing that most Kung Fu practitioners say is what they’d use to overcome aggressive fighters, is illegal. usually can’t hit the covered head at all. Or if so only in a certain way.

I do want to come down heavy on Kung Fu. I love Kung Fu! But we have fu(ked it up.
The reason there’s this whole non-fighting chi kung meditation dancing side of it is that the folks here and their counterparts created that market. Folks that don’t have it in them to open a real fighting gym and that responsibility. What it really means to be a martial art school… representatives of a fighting system!!!

So they sell all this bull$hit to Americans the same way they bought it off a Chinese man that duped them, following a path that so obviously doesn’t lead to martial proficiency. Yet they come in droves for it. Creating delicate masters by the dozen.

No, they won’t fight. They’re too dangerous. Its too beneath them… how many times have they had to eat $hit quietly because they hadn’t the nerve to stand up for themselves, answer back like a man, like they wanted to… because they’re training is empty.

30

Ray, from the way I am talked to here I was under the inmpression that you had to open every dialog with some sort of insult. First of all, for a gung fu forum it seems that everyone here is into some sort of sport fighting. Ring fighting, and that gung fu is worthless for some reason. It might be from the way some seem to be talking. Trying to sound so smart and all. Gung fu is like any other form of fighting in that it is physical and it does not envolve mythic abilities. I am a practical man. I do not believe in anything that you can not prove to me, and internal gung fu is just one of these. And for the love of Pete, quite trying to compare it with such stuff as Muay Thai, Brizialian Jujitsu, boxing, and whatever. Those are for sport and are fought by tight rules. You can not really compare it to a fighting system that is not designed for sport for christ’s sake, but you all keep doing it. You can kick me off the forum if you want to, I don’t really care. The concept of having a decent and civil conversation on this forum is impossible anyway. I have been insulted more than once, and I am not usually willing to insult people back, but I have learned this right here on your forum. Some of you people don’t have a life outside this forum. Or it would seem.
Now, as for my suggesting people go out and endanger their lives to test their skills. Am I the first one to make this suggestion. Or should it be reworded like, fight a resisting opponent. I made that comment for those that compare sport fighting to real street fighting. You go into a street fight working by ring rules and you will get hurt. And you can not fight in the ring as a sport if you don’t have these rules to fight by. Someone will certainly get hurt. So for these very reasons you or anyone else can not compare the 2. You take away the techniques that make a fighting system useful and put it into the ring and you have nothing left to fight with except what the other guy has, no matter what his system is.
I realize that most of the top regulars here say that they ignore me. But that is mostly because I seldom ever agree with their BS. Most of them have never fought outside a ring anyway, or in one, so it is of no consequince to me. I am always hearing about how they teach and how there school is this and that, but I can not find anything to even suggest that this is true. They don’t even tell where they live or their real names. With the exception of maybe a few. It is easy for people to hide behind their keyboards and talk smack to people. I use my real name and I will tell you where I live. I don’t make no claims that are not true and I have been doing this when most of you were still passing yellow. To get respect from me, you got to give it. It goes both ways. I am done here anyway. One can not learn here, so what is the purpose? To read endless arguements about why or how this is better or this is worse or my lineage is better than yours or some such? Chu and Redmond are probably the only 2 people on this forum that can discuss without talking crap.

31

[QUOTE=Lucas;963315]hey goju, you should be like that guy johnny from that jet li movie ‘the master’ and start a reality tv show where you go around and issue challenges to masters!

ill pay to watch it[/QUOTE]

lol:D:D:D first stop boztepe school:D

32

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;963314]personally, i’m not saying TCMA is bad.
.[/QUOTE]

ya i dont think anyone is saying that.

the overhelming problem is being able to discern between the two completely seperate worlds.

its like nascar drivers vs the guy that sits home drinking beer wearing a nascar t shirt.

33

[QUOTE=Pork Chop;963314]I’m saying guys that come from a tcma background that talk trash about sport fighters for being “sport” and not “street”, who refuse to jump in there and show their stuff, definitely don’t have “it”, and any talk by said individuals blowing up themselves or their capabilities is purely m@sterbation.[/QUOTE]

i know i agree with this but my point is you have too many **** talkers from both sides who wouldnt be willing to show their stuff:D

34

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;963316]Where do Kung Fu guys do their thing? And what is it that they do when they get together to do it?

[/QUOTE]

thats my implication precisely. kungfu guys generally will have to change their format to something more along the lines of mma. or leave their kungfu school and join a mma gym.

thats where they do their thing. the same place everyone else does. there are more and more cma, and tma guys, jumping on the mma bandwagon. switching camps so to speak. they can test themselves there, they can learn different material there, etc.

if i go into a new mma gym today and sign up, you think im going to tell them i come from a kungfu background? nope. ill just say im new to ma and sign me up for beginner class.

35

when i went to my first mma gym i told them i knew karate and they didnt hee haw about it (posibly because the manangers uncle taught marines aikido)

and they let me spar with amatuer kickboxers who had fights under their belts and i only had a hard time with one of them. and this is coming from a guy who just practiced karate in his back yard with his uncle and largely only sparred with one person for most of his martial arts training:D

36

Boztepe had good root and sinking power. He honestly felt more like a wrestler then a Wing Chun guy, comparing him to other Wing Chun guys I’ve played with.

…

I’ve trained with high-level “sport fighters” at Renzo’s. Let me tell you how much they’re thinking about the world of CMA and its masters: not at all. These are people who are world recognized and awarded for their skill. These are people who became rich and famous off their skill.

A “CMA master” is less likely to draw their attention than some drunk, smack-talking fan. It’s just not the same universe. When you’re knocking out Chuck Lidell’s you don’t go looking for that old man in the push hands video. When you’re the old man or his student and you want to make a legit name, you go face a Lidell. Every high school to college football player to your average armchair slob at home has an opinion about Monday night football. But there’s only a number of millionaires getting paid for being on that field. You want that clout, you have to earn the right to be there.

…

I have no beef with TMA and TCMA. I love them. It just bothers me to see it ba$tardized to the point that the majority of it is useless.

…

If you haven’t noticed, MMA fights start standing and at a distance… this favors Kung Fu. Plenty of MMA fighters, including the past few champs, all choose to keep the fight standing. The venue is fair.

37

i personaly dont care what people want to do. i think people can do whatever they want to do.
i like to do kung fu to preserve a cool chinese culture. i dont really train it for self defence for because in real life pople shoot you, and i dont like competeing because when you lose nobody cares about you and you feel really bad.

my cousin’s bodyguard was a amature sanda champion in jiangsu. he was funny because when he sees somebody walking down the street he always wants to fight them. he used to joke when he sees his parents he wants to fight them too, but is too scared. he was crazy good i was scared of him, he saw me and wants to fight me lol
but he lives in a small room alone with barely any money, hhes only 25 but his hands always shake nonstop, and the only thing he does is traing so he had no friends.

my cousin never did any type of fight training, hes very fat and hairy, but when he goes to a rival company office he takes off his belt and whips the secretary and kick a table because they cheat him, and gets his ass kissed and 100 thousand rmb business deal.

i think fighting is cool but if you devote your life to it you live a really hard life. im not smart, my brain not so big, but i want to finish university to live a good life.

like in college a lot of people drop out and cry and you never hear about them, in sport fight a lot of people want to become superstars but cant make it and are sad but you never hear about them

38

lol your cousin sounds like a bad ass bawang.

mma is definately a fair venue. its the most fair venue in the world. but for anyone to enter a mma match soley as a skilled cma striker against a skilled mma fighter is kidding themselves. there is a very good chance they will get submitted. for most cases there must be a cross over to even think about fighting in a mma match. sure the pure striker might start off with some lucky ko/tko but once they get taken down its going to get ugly quick. thats discounting any throws or ‘standing grappling’ the cma guy might know.

39

yeah man my cousin is the man, he always had 3 prostitute ladies hanging on his arm

i think a lot of kung fu isnt realistic, but rolling on the ground for 5 min is a bit not realistic also
i think maybe mma can be more realistic if youre on the ground too long, the referee hit you with a stick

the only time i see fighting with bare hands in real life is one guy against 20 guys, you cant do the ground fight unlee you beat up some drunk guy in a small town.

even tho mma is more realistic than traditional kung fu, its still getting hurt for entertainment. people boo when you get quick knock out because they paid big money to see long fight
for me i like watching fights that finish very very fast like 5 seconds, i think that takes skil
if somebody sneak sup on you and you still can beat them, i think that takes a lot of skill

i think the time and age, and the kind of people who is training kung fu now is all differnt. my grandmother said when she watched excution a long time ago, the guy cutting the head was smiling, then after they beat those drums and pots. a diferent kind of people trained kung fu.

40

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;963191]Your comments are insulting to people who have dedicated themselves to study certain aspects of unarmed combat and take the risk to their health and ego to test their skills publicly against well-trained foes.[/quote]or is it simply insulting to you? why do you take everything so personally?

Boxing is a sport. Kick boxing is a sport. Fencing is a sport. Jiu-Jitsu is a sport.
actually they have all EVOLVED into sports… it’s all about the roots baby!!!

All these “sport” types are competing openly on an international level. Why is it that we have no evidence, NONE, of any Kung Fu master applying his skill as openly? Why haven’t any of these great masters compared with their modern boxer, MMA counterparts? I was just a CMA student for a decade, was impressed enough with what I learned to go compare. It’s the only honest thing to do if you are serious as any master would be, right?

So instead wasting time insulting people who are pushing their craft, why don’t you be the kung fu guy to dig us up some evidence. Go talk to the top internal masters, see if you can get them to fight. Find out what rules, if any, they would want to compare under. Then get back to me.
LOL… didn’t any of these old timer kung fu peeps ever tell you that the best fighters do not need to fight?? my teacher always told me that at a competition the best of the best are only out of those who decide to show up, other people have no desire to prove themselves or to water their ego’s with the blood of others… the reason there are no high level kung fu peeps out in the limelight is simply because there is no desire to fight anyone. no need to unless attacked, in person, in the physical realm… LOL… perhaps its simply because we all have such a great peace of mind and like to watch the chaos of those beneath us squirm in the fray of the world. so now you can attempt a retort at me, but i don’t take things personally so you can hit me with your best shot, but it won’t stick to anything. :smiley:

you know ray… i believe it is you that are taking things way too personally… way to personally. this is not a healthy attitude to have in life… if you can allow words on an internet forum boards to affect you so, what does that say about your peace of mind? i am just musing out loud… try not to take it personally, because it seems you always do. :stuck_out_tongue: