Attention All Fighters !!!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750386]How are you defining results?[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t, terrence was - I was asking a question. He was saying something about principle people don’t persue results, and I was asking if he was 100 sure about that. Basically, he speaks most things as if they are known facts while most of the time it just comes off as BS.

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750386]Can you explain how that mindset is different?[/QUOTE]

Viewing training and fighting with WC from a principle/concept mindset vs. how Terrence continuously campaigns is the ‘correct’ and ‘only’ way. I think I was clear on that, but if you want me to go further I can.

Thanks,
Jonathan

42

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;750431]I wasn’t, terrence was - I was asking a question. He was saying something about principle people don’t persue results, and I was asking if he was 100% sure about that. [/QUOTE]

You said this:

Speaking from my own experience, I do exactly what you are saying - I base my actions on the results I have gotten through physical training.

Hence, my question. If you are saying you are basing your actions on your results, you must have some kind of criteria for what those results are and how you determine them.

43

Hey guys,

The problem with the whole discussion is two things.

  1. Unfair comparrisons

  2. Fighter Theorititians Theory

One is simple. Because we have Fighters Envy or MMA envy these days there is a lack of common sense thoughts going into comparrisons. To take a fair look at something you have to compare training time, class time, conditioning time etc.. Looking at a guy who is training 3 days a week a few hours each time with partners and doing his cardio etc against a guy who hits the Kwoon once or twice a week for an hour or so doesn’t stand up.

At the BMAC (brazilian martial art center) “the hub for mma around town” they average around 2 hours a day when not getting ready for competition. 1 hour Muay Thai/1 hour Grappling When compitition time is coming they add an extra hour to their training plus the fitness and diet etc.

Now, whats the average WC guy doing for training? If someone shows me a MMA guy that trains their stand up (or art) equal to our fist then I say there is NO Reason or Excuse if you can compete with them! None! Hence why its so popular. One hour twice a week with a partner with WC or one hour twice a week with a partner a the (insert style) gym would make for a fair comparison wouldn’t it. How we compare these days have nothing to do with actual fair comparisson.

Second! All this Game or No Game or Fighter or Theorititian labelling is laughable. First, how many Wing Chunners are actually interested in using their stuff in the UFC or Pro level? If so, you need a lot of other stuff besides WC like cardio, ground, diet, etc. Second! Lets DEFINE what a real Game is. Is a real game going down the street and sparring your friends in a comfortable enviornment or going to the Real Competitions and Playing agains total strangers doing something different. One is called Practice Game and the other is the actual Game. I am sure lots of people glove up and spar with all the local friends. How many people doing MA are not hanging around with MA guys from the area? I’m sure Terence is not the only one :wink: :smiley:

So, yes, T is correct that Practice/Warm Up Games are important but unless someone has Actually Enterred and competed in a Real Game (MMA event, Kyokoshin or any Full Contact event) they have Zero rights to use the Theorititian Label. So, how many people using this Word have played a Real Game besides Dale (knifefighter)? Not that Dale uses this word hahaha

Dale wrote:

How are you defining results?

I define it as pound for pound training time results (fair comparison) and the other would be by showing how it works in Actual Games with a fight record to back up your beliefs!

44

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;750425]T-

Sorry, not buying any of it. You post some good ‘arguments’, based on your expereince. But I don’t believe you’ve ‘experienced’ everything, so you really only have your one view. I see your points, but dissagree if what you are saying is the ONLY way, and not neccessairly the most efficient way in some cases.
It’s really no use going any further

Thanks for your views.

JP[/QUOTE]

You don’t have to buy anything becasue I’m not selling anything.

One of the big problems with the TCMAs and WCK is that some people view them as different than other sports/athletic activities. But the way we learn and develop athletic skill doesn’t change because we are all human. In the past 100 years they’ve done loads of studies on how to best learn and develop motor/athletic skills. Atheltes and their trainers have learned more about how to best develop/train. We can learn from that or hide our heads in the sand.

All fighters that attain significant levels do it through the same process, and that process involves making sparring/fighting the core of their training (that doesn’t mean they do it most, just that everything revolves around it), they all are heavy into conditioning, they all practice realistically and minimize their unrealistic practice, they all cross-train (which includes sparring against other skilled people), they all seek out the best people they can find, etc.

If there was another way to develop those skills, why don’t we see it?

45

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;750455]Hey guys,

The problem with the whole discussion is two things.

  1. Unfair comparrisons

  2. Fighter Theorititians Theory

One is simple. Because we have Fighters Envy or MMA envy these days there is a lack of common sense thoughts going into comparrisons. To take a fair look at something you have to compare training time, class time, conditioning time etc.. Looking at a guy who is training 3 days a week a few hours each time with partners and doing his cardio etc against a guy who hits the Kwoon once or twice a week for an hour or so doesn’t stand up.

At the BMAC (brazilian martial art center) “the hub for mma around town” they average around 2 hours a day when not getting ready for competition. 1 hour Muay Thai/1 hour Grappling When compitition time is coming they add an extra hour to their training plus the fitness and diet etc.

Now, whats the average WC guy doing for training? If someone shows me a MMA guy that trains their stand up (or art) equal to our fist then I say there is NO Reason or Excuse if you can compete with them! None! Hence why its so popular. One hour twice a week with a partner with WC or one hour twice a week with a partner a the (insert style) gym would make for a fair comparison wouldn’t it. How we compare these days have nothing to do with actual fair comparisson.

[/QUOTE]

I will agree with you that if a MMA trained the way most WCK people do, they would also develop little to no skill! But not for the reasons you cite. It’s because WCK people train unrealistically and so can’t develop realistic skills.

Of course the amount of time you spend in practicing a skill will be a major factor in the amount of skill you develop. That’s a given. But so is the quality of that practice, Roll twice a week against a purple belt in BJJ, and in a couple of years you will really develop some sound, solid skills (blue belt). But if you take the same time period, don’t roll but do unrealistic training (lockflows, etc.), with unskilled people, and you won’t develop much in the way of skill.

Second! All this Game or No Game or Fighter or Theorititian labelling is laughable. First, how many Wing Chunners are actually interested in using their stuff in the UFC or Pro level? If so, you need a lot of other stuff besides WC like cardio, ground, diet, etc. Second! Lets DEFINE what a real Game is. Is a real game going down the street and sparring your friends in a comfortable enviornment or going to the Real Competitions and Playing agains total strangers doing something different. One is called Practice Game and the other is the actual Game. I am sure lots of people glove up and spar with all the local friends. How many people doing MA are not hanging around with MA guys from the area? I’m sure Terence is not the only one :wink: :smiley:

So, yes, T is correct that Practice/Warm Up Games are important but unless someone has Actually Enterred and competed in a Real Game (MMA event, Kyokoshin or any Full Contact event) they have Zero rights to use the Theorititian Label. So, how many people using this Word have played a Real Game besides Dale (knifefighter)? Not that Dale uses this word hahaha

If you go to a BJJ class, you’ll roll (spar). That’s not just because that is the only way to develop skill, but because it is fun – and that’s why people take up BJJ in the first place. Rolling/sparring is practice and the practice is the actual doing. You practice what you will actualy do by actually doing it! It’s the same with any martial art. At least for the fighters.

You don’t need to use your BJJ at the UFC level to be a fighter – everyone who trains in BJJ is fighting. The activity is to fight/spar with it. Whether it is recreational or competitive. Whenever you fight with your BJJ, it is real. You are doing it for real. Most BJJ practitioners will never fight in the UFC; many will never fight in tournaments – but they all fight in class. And in so doing, develop fighting skills.

Theoretical nonfighters do mainly unrealstic training (drills, chi sao, etc.) and don’t do the activity (fight).

And yes, lots of people spar with their friends. So what? If the aikido guy spars with the tai ji guy – is this supposed to be realistic sparring?

46

You say rolling=sparring=fighting. How so? When BJJers roll do they also punch each other full force, half force or no striking at all. Do they use elbows and headbutts? or are they just trying to lock,choke submit,gain position,control or pass guard without striking?

47

Warm up Game and Real Game are different! The adrenaline will tell you this if you ever competed. I competed in the Vermont BJJ event when i was grappling. Since you like to use BJJ as an example. While its similar to Warm Up Game, or Practice in the Kwoon, I call tell you “FROM EXPERIENCE” that its just not the same.

Which Real Game (event) have you competed in to test your theory or are you basing it on what other do? Something you point fingers to others for doing frequently :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

T, I really do agree with you on many levels but if you can point fingers at others then you can expect them to also point towards your posts/philosophy. Martial Art or any Sport is about the total training package. Stress one thing more than anything else and you will have an out of balanced performance machine.

48

[QUOTE=hunt1;750488]You say rolling=sparring=fighting. How so? When BJJers roll do they also punch each other full force, half force or no striking at all. Do they use elbows and headbutts? or are they just trying to lock,choke submit,gain position,control or pass guard without striking?[/QUOTE]

How so? because they are doing whatever it is they do at full force. Coincidentally, I posted an account of mine on the main forum that happened this weekend. I am a bouncer and we are not allowed to strike unless the situation is extreme - weapons or multiple attackers - which has only happened a few times. I use bjj and judo on a regular basis on my job. If we rolled half speed or only did two man drills and technique repetition, I would not be anywhere near as effective. the ability to train all out with resistance is a great equalizer. Consequently, I would say yes, it does indeed equal fighting.

49

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750453]You said this:
“Speaking from my own experience, I do exactly what you are saying - I base my actions on the results I have gotten through physical training.”

Hence, my question. If you are saying you are basing your actions on your results, you must have some kind of criteria for what those results are and how you determine them.[/QUOTE]

Terrence had said this:
“A serious problem with the “concept” approach is people do exactly waht you say to do – keep sticking to their principles. They pursue principles instead of results. You see, I don’t do something because it conforms to some principle, I do it because it gets me the best results (for me).”

I don’t ‘persue principles’, I persue results. If I am shown a concept supported by principles I don’t just write it down and look for the next one. I do the physical training to see if I can make it work, or find faults with it, etc. These are the results.
My criterea for the results are if they improve my fighting abilities, my structures, my understanding of (here it comes) time space and energy, etc.
I’ve boxed in the past, I’ve fought in the past. If my training and understanding of the principles/concepts improves my skills I had before WC, then I’d say those are positive results.

I am not sure what Terrence knows about ‘concept/principle people’ nor how they train. But he sure talks like he knows. He says he doesn’t do something because it ‘comforms to some principle’ that’s fine. But just because he doesn’t do it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. He just does what works ‘best for him’. But he seems to then say it’s the best and only way. Pretty tall order. Must be an expert or authority or something… :rolleyes:

JP

50

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;750490]Warm up Game and Real Game are different! The adrenaline will tell you this if you ever competed. I competed in the Vermont BJJ event when i was grappling. Since you like to use BJJ as an example. While its similar to Warm Up Game, or Practice in the Kwoon, I call tell you “FROM EXPERIENCE” that its just not the same.

Which Real Game (event) have you competed in to test your theory or are you basing it on what other do? Something you point fingers to others for doing frequently :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

T, I really do agree with you on many levels but if you can point fingers at others then you can expect them to also point towards your posts/philosophy. Martial Art or any Sport is about the total training package. Stress one thing more than anything else and you will have an out of balanced performance machine.[/QUOTE]

they are different, but not as different. When I was in TMA, we spent time on forms and learning applications to forms that we could not always practice at full speed for various reasons - pressure points, eye gouging, finger manipulations, etc. Sure, there is more to CMA than that, but for seld defense scenarios, this comprised much of our training, because we wanted to train “techniques that would end a confrontation quickly”.

That said, you obviously cannot train those techniques with full speed. However, EVERYTHING I learn in judo, I can train full speed in randori. EVERYTHING I learn in bjj I can use full speed while rolling. In muay thai, I can spar 80% or greater, using everything I’ve learned.

Sticking with the bjj example, the same techniques I use while rolling are the same techniques I’ve used in competition, and are the same techniques I use on my job. I execute them with the same intensity. And since I’m used to adrenaline rush and other stressors now, it seems pretty much the exact same for me. sparring and competition as done by sport fighters are not the same, but are nowhere near as far removed from eachother as other training methods.

51

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;750530]I don’t ‘persue principles’, I persue results. If I am shown a concept supported by principles I don’t just write it down and look for the next one. I do the physical training to see if I can make it work, or find faults with it, etc. These are the results.
My criterea for the results are if they improve my fighting abilities, my structures, my understanding of (here it comes) time space and energy, etc.[/QUOTE]

When you say “fighting abilities”, how are you defining this?
Sparring, chi sao, street fights, competitions?

52

Since the subject changed a bit I’ll continue.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;750475]You don’t have to buy anything becasue I’m not selling anything.

One of the big problems with the TCMAs and WCK is that some people view them as different than other sports/athletic activities. But the way we learn and develop athletic skill doesn’t change because we are all human. In the past 100 years they’ve done loads of studies on how to best learn and develop motor/athletic skills. Atheltes and their trainers have learned more about how to best develop/train. We can learn from that or hide our heads in the sand. [/QUOTE]

Are we talking athletes/sporting events or fighting? Those are two different things. Sure, a sport fighter/athelete can make a **** good fighter, but one does not by default equal the other. And yes, there is much to be learned form sports/athletic activities. I don’t think anyone would argue this.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;750475]All fighters that attain significant levels do it through the same process, and that process involves making sparring/fighting the core of their training (that doesn’t mean they do it most, just that everything revolves around it), they all are heavy into conditioning, they all practice realistically and minimize their unrealistic practice, they all cross-train (which includes sparring against other skilled people), they all seek out the best people they can find, etc.
If there was another way to develop those skills, why don’t we see it?[/QUOTE]

What ‘fighters’ are you referring too?
There are those fighting in sporting events with rules to protect each other, and there are those fighting on the street (sometimes for thier lives). There is a difference.
Yes, I agree, that most all sport fighters do it through the same process. And they make very good sport fighters, AND they probably make very good ‘fighters’ as well.
But I’ve also known a few ‘fighters’ that don’t really train at all (except MAYBE weight lifting) that have cleaned the clocks of some pretty good ‘sport fighters’ in less than a minute on the street.

My point: Maybe you haven’t seen it just because it hasn’t been put down on video? How many ‘real’ street fights have you witnessed?

53

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;750455]Hey guys,

The problem with the whole discussion is two things.

  1. Unfair comparrisons

  2. Fighter Theorititians Theory

One is simple. Because we have Fighters Envy or MMA envy these days there is a lack of common sense thoughts going into comparrisons. To take a fair look at something you have to compare training time, class time, conditioning time etc.. Looking at a guy who is training 3 days a week a few hours each time with partners and doing his cardio etc against a guy who hits the Kwoon once or twice a week for an hour or so doesn’t stand up.[/quote]

compare similar things, then. When I first started judo, I did it 1.5 hours per day, twice per week. I was doing CMA for 1.5 hours per day 3 - 4 days per week. Even though I was doing less judo, when I went back and sparred some of the guys I used to train with, I was dominating them. Not because judo is better, but because we put in more sparring time than we did in the longfist classes.

At the BMAC (brazilian martial art center) “the hub for mma around town” they average around 2 hours a day when not getting ready for competition. 1 hour Muay Thai/1 hour Grappling When compitition time is coming they add an extra hour to their training plus the fitness and diet etc.

Now, whats the average WC guy doing for training? If someone shows me a MMA guy that trains their stand up (or art) equal to our fist then I say there is NO Reason or Excuse if you can compete with them! None! Hence why its so popular. One hour twice a week with a partner with WC or one hour twice a week with a partner a the (insert style) gym would make for a fair comparison wouldn’t it. How we compare these days have nothing to do with actual fair comparisson.

okay, so what is the difference in these two groups of people? why aren’t the WC guys training 3 days per week, for several hours like the BMAC guys?

Second! All this Game or No Game or Fighter or Theorititian labelling is laughable. First, how many Wing Chunners are actually interested in using their stuff in the UFC or Pro level? If so, you need a lot of other stuff besides WC like cardio, ground, diet, etc.

I do agree with you here. However, some of that could be ingrained with the training, as it is in sport arts. when you roll 30 - 60 minutes per session, you develop the cardio and the anaerobic conditioning. It’s part of the training. You can train bjj on a recreational level and to fine in competition - it’s all in the training format. I placed second in the state judo shiai from training only two days per week. the training was set up in such a way that you received what you needed. Of course, if you are trying to compete at higher levels, extra training is necessary, as your opposition will be putting in the extra time as well.

54

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;750534]Are we talking athletes/sporting events or fighting? Those are two different things. Sure, a sport fighter/athelete can make a **** good fighter, but one does not by default equal the other.[/quote]

what are the non-sport fighters doing to become good street fighters that the sport guys are not? how are you training in the kwoon that sets you apart from the sport guys? I’m guessing scenario training is what will be discussed here, but I’m curious anyway.

But I’ve also known a few ‘fighters’ that don’t really train at all (except MAYBE weight lifting) that have cleaned the clocks of some pretty good ‘sport fighters’ in less than a minute on the street.

We all do. I also know street fighters with no training and that don’t even lift weights, who clean the clocks of trained TMA. Heck, two of our bouncers were pure tma - One was taiji/kenpo and the other TKD (yeah, not quite traditional, but you get the point) - both quit after getting beaten up in a fight, and manhandled in other instances. Of course, that’s not to say TMA is no good for fighting - we have a guy with a WC background here now, but I haven’t seen him in an altercation yet - it merely illustrates that everyone has stories of seeing various trained exponents defeated.

However, I’m pretty sure in his quote, he is referring to successful sport fighters.

55

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;750533]When you say “fighting abilities”, how are you defining this?
Sparring, chi sao, street fights, competitions?[/QUOTE]

I’d say only one of those is actual ‘fighting’.

I have not done any competitions yet.
Only one street fight since training WC. No bragging, but was over before it really started, so I would say I had positive results.
‘Chi sau’ as I believe most people view it isn’t necessarily fighting. But I believe it IS a part of fighting given a certain range and facing. And I do believe it does help train fighting abilities (understanding gates, range, relaxation, flow, etc)
I have done some sparring.
I have also ‘played’ with some pretty tough ‘street fighters’ back home. Friends that know I train and want to test me out (not a ‘real fight’ but not slap boxing either). Guys that before my training would most likely have cleaned me up real quick. I suprised myself and them. Again, positive results. This is my best measurement of skill increases.

Of course there’s much more I could do to test my skills. And I am starting to do that as well.
Besides all that, I have been in real fights in the past. I know my skills have increased from then. I think it’s not ‘that’ hard to gage one’s progress without lying to oneself. I could be wrong..

Why do you ask?

JP

56

[QUOTE=SevenStar;750536]what are the non-sport fighters doing to become good street fighters that the sport guys are not? how are you training in the kwoon that sets you apart from the sport guys? I’m guessing scenario training is what will be discussed here, but I’m curious anyway.[/QUOTE]

For the most part, they don’t ‘train’ like sport fighters - they just fight. Well, some boxed in the past, but no ‘training’ now.
I didn’t say I was/wasn’t doing anything different than sport fighters.

JP

57

okay - you were referring to friends of yours. I misunderstood. you said that a person being a sport fighter is not necessarily a good fighter. I thought you were implying that tma training makes you a good fighter.

58

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;750490]

T, I really do agree with you on many levels but if you can point fingers at others then you can expect them to also point towards your posts/philosophy. Martial Art or any Sport is about the total training package. Stress one thing more than anything else and you will have an out of balanced performance machine.[/QUOTE]

Hey Jim,
I also agree with Terence on some of the things he says, but he seems more bent on just proving his point than anything else, that he can’t see what I asked in the first place.
What’s wrong with the wing chun principles / concepts?
Not do you think it’s wrong to read about principles and concepts and think you can play basketball? I mean wing Jiujitsu, I mean Brazillian Chun. Ah $hit I’m getting mixed up again.

:stuck_out_tongue:

J

59

Hey SevenStar,

[QUOTE=SevenStar;750536]what are the non-sport fighters doing to become good street fighters that the sport guys are not? how are you training in the kwoon that sets you apart from the sport guys? I’m guessing scenario training is what will be discussed here, but I’m curious anyway.[/QUOTE]

This wasn’t directed to me, but I don’t think the non-sport fighters are doing anything different to set them appart. Alot of the people doing martial arts as a hobby, show up like once or twice a week for fun. Now the problem is when those people think they can throw their hat in the ring with the cats training like dogs :stuck_out_tongue:

So I’m assuming you’ve done wing chun, and my original question is what’s wrong with the wing chun principles? If they’re flawed, cool man I’m open to hearing yours or anyone elses thoughts

J

60

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;750490]Warm up Game and Real Game are different! The adrenaline will tell you this if you ever competed. I competed in the Vermont BJJ event when i was grappling. Since you like to use BJJ as an example. While its similar to Warm Up Game, or Practice in the Kwoon, I call tell you “FROM EXPERIENCE” that its just not the same.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying the are the same – I’m saying that the skills you need in either are the same. Fighting on the street is not fighting in the gym. I “get” that. Fighting in front of people is different that fighting in the gym. Got it. I’ve ben to two NAGAs. I know. But the skills we need are the same, regardless of the venue, the pressure, etc. Those realistic skills we get the same way – by training realistically.

What’s interesting is that if you talk to good fighters, they’ll tell you that your training (fighting in the gym) should be more demanding than your fight on the mat – this is how to best prepare (both Ali and Rickson have said that publically).

Which Real Game (event) have you competed in to test your theory or are you basing it on what other do? Something you point fingers to others for doing frequently :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

T, I really do agree with you on many levels but if you can point fingers at others then you can expect them to also point towards your posts/philosophy. Martial Art or any Sport is about the total training package. Stress one thing more than anything else and you will have an out of balanced performance machine.

Instead of making this personal, let’s look to how champions at your so-called real game do it. How do they develop their skills? Are these champions doing forms, loads of unrealistic drills, chi gung, standing post, etc.? You see, Jim, that’s exactly my point: instead of listening to WCK “masters” who have never fought anyone of any significant skill tell us how to do things, how to develop skills, how to train to fight, let’s look at what “real” fighters do, and follow their example. We know their training model works, and works extremely well since it produces good fighters at all levels. Or, we can listen to peoplewith opposing views that have never done it – theoretical nonfighters.