[QUOTE=GlennR;1230391]Yes.
Hong Kong fuey versus Wun Hung Low[/QUOTE]
hahahahaha!
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230338]Does anyone know the identities of anyone involved?[/QUOTE]
what does it matter, seriously in any other fighting art two clips by a mid level fighter wouldnt even raise peoples eyebrows, but this being wing chun we need to know their names, lineage and the back story…its just sparring their doesnt have to be a shaw borthers story behind it
[QUOTE=Frost;1230415]what does it matter[/QUOTE]
I thought someone said we can only judge wing chun by results? Here is a positive result from someone that I think is demonstrating less than great wing chun. Are you happy? Do you feel more kindly disposed towards wing chun now?
seriously in any other fighting art two clips by a mid level fighter wouldnt even raise peoples eyebrows, but this being wing chun we need to know their names, lineage and the back story
Judging only by results makes the identities of those involved (and their previous records) very important, don’t you think? For example with Alan Orr’s team fights we know the level of opponent is very low based on previous records and so, win or lose, we can be sure it doesn’t tell us much about the utility of wing chun in sports competitions. Judging the way you want to, if a wing chun fighter won a large competition you could then proclaim wing chun as effective.
its just sparring their doesnt have to be a shaw borthers story behind it
It isn’t sparring. Looks like a gym challenge to me.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230320]Looks like the same guy in this clip. Lack of stance pressure is apparent again but he kind of wins it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7td8Hc-V4[/QUOTE]
Sure, he could have done a lot better, but he at least handled it on his feet. Now if he only knew what to do once in position on the ground, the Karateka would have had something broken in a matter of seconds. Too bad they are both totally clueless on the ground.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1230737]Sure, he could have done a lot better, but he at least handled it on his feet. Now if he only knew what to do once in position on the ground, the Karateka would have had something broken in a matter of seconds. Too bad they are both totally clueless on the ground.[/QUOTE]
The karateka had an opportunity for armbar from the guard, and once the WC guy freed that arm he (WC) could have passed guard properly and got a better control position.
Most karate and WC skills don’t teach groundfighting. I don’t think it’s fair to criticise the fighters on their lack of ground skills in that context (though in other contexts it might well be fair).
Wing Chun guy looked pretty good, though his opponent did little but cover up and throw wild haymakers.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230695]I thought someone said we can only judge wing chun by results? Here is a positive result from someone that I think is demonstrating less than great wing chun. Are you happy? Do you feel more kindly disposed towards wing chun now?
Judging only by results makes the identities of those involved (and their previous records) very important, don’t you think? For example with Alan Orr’s team fights we know the level of opponent is very low based on previous records and so, win or lose, we can be sure it doesn’t tell us much about the utility of wing chun in sports competitions. Judging the way you want to, if a wing chun fighter won a large competition you could then proclaim wing chun as effective.
It isn’t sparring. Looks like a gym challenge to me.[/QUOTE]
you are the one saying he won with less than great wing chun and criticising him, as you have done with all the fight clips from alan orr and you still haven;t posted a single fighting clip you think is a good rep of wing chun…
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230695]I thought someone said we can only judge wing chun by results? Here is a positive result from someone that I think is demonstrating less than great wing chun. Are you happy? Do you feel more kindly disposed towards wing chun now?
Judging only by results makes the identities of those involved (and their previous records) very important, don’t you think? For example with Alan Orr’s team fights we know the level of opponent is very low based on previous records and so, win or lose, we can be sure it doesn’t tell us much about the utility of wing chun in sports competitions. Judging the way you want to, if a wing chun fighter won a large competition you could then proclaim wing chun as effective.
It isn’t sparring. Looks like a gym challenge to me.[/QUOTE]
If you look at clips of some amateur boxers or mma fighters even they may not look good to you or live up to your standards but so what? Do you then dismiss boxing or mma.
You have several times before mentioned how the Orr team is low level even though they fight amateur semi and pro level mma. That level of performance is on par with most good mma gyms and that is a pretty high level.
What you need to realize is that wing chun like for example boxing is only part of what goes into being able to fight mma. All it takes is for your opponent to shoot a low single on you and the wing chun like the boxing is taken away from you. Couture showed that when he fought Toney.
[QUOTE=Frost;1230753]you are the one saying he won with less than great wing chun and criticising him, as you have done with all the fight clips from alan orr and you still haven;t posted a single fighting clip you think is a good rep of wing chun…[/QUOTE]
I have posted many clips of good wing chun. You have posted none…and this is a wing chun forum. Imagine
[QUOTE=tc101;1230762]If you look at clips of some amateur boxers or mma fighters even they may not look good to you or live up to your standards but so what? Do you then dismiss boxing or mma.[/QUOTE]
The training systems utilised in boxing and mma, and the principles underlying (where they even exist), are fundamentally flawed.
You have several times before mentioned how the Orr team is low level even though they fight amateur semi and pro level mma. That level of performance is on par with most good mma gyms and that is a pretty high level.
Anyone can fight. Only a few win. Orr’s team wins nothing of any consequence. If you hold sport fighting results as the be all and end all then you have to live or die by that ethos. You can’t have it both ways.
What you need to realize is that wing chun like for example boxing is only part of what goes into being able to fight mma. All it takes is for your opponent to shoot a low single on you and the wing chun like the boxing is taken away from you. Couture showed that when he fought Toney.
I am not interested in playing in sports competitions. You seem to be confusing these with real fighting, lol
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230850]The training systems utilised in boxing and mma, and the principles underlying (where they even exist), are fundamentally flawed.
[/QUOTE]
That’s either the most arrogant or most deluded post I’ve read in ages, can’t decide which.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1230855]That’s either the most arrogant or most deluded post I’ve read in ages, can’t decide which.[/QUOTE]
It is probably the truest post you have read in a while, although you obviously don’t realise it. Training in gloves is a good idea if you are going to fight in gloves. Not if you are not. I don’t wear padded gloves most of the time. Do you?
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230858]It is probably the truest post you have read in a while, although you obviously don’t realise it. Training in gloves is a good idea if you are going to fight in gloves. Not if you are not. I don’t wear padded gloves most of the time. Do you?[/QUOTE]
Then go to any mma or boxing Club and challenge them to fight without gloves. Piece of cake since they are clueless about fighting in your oppinion
The training systems utilised in boxing and mma, and the principles underlying (where they even exist), are fundamentally flawed.
Id suggest the logic system in your brain is fundamentally flawed.
Honestly, go down to your local boxing gym, and im sure they’ll accommodate you with some gloveless sparring after you tell them they are doing it all wrong.
Gee, youll even have an advantage as they will only be used to sparring with gloves.
Go on champ… youll moider tha bums…
[QUOTE=anerlich;1230744]Most karate and WC skills don’t teach groundfighting. I don’t think it’s fair to criticise the fighters on their lack of ground skills in that context (though in other contexts it might well be fair).[/QUOTE]
Why not? They’re both fighters, right? It’s kind of a joke if you want to learn to fight but would die as soon as you hit the ground. If you learn a fighting art, to fight, regardless of which art and what it lacks, I think it’s fair to criticize you on any aspect of fighting. It’s your fault if your skills are lacking and you turn into a clueless pre-beginner on the ground. It’s alright if they’re just hobbyists or just don’t take it very seriously.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1230932]Id suggest the logic system in your brain is fundamentally flawed.
Honestly, go down to your local boxing gym, and im sure they’ll accommodate you with some gloveless sparring after you tell them they are doing it all wrong.
Gee, youll even have an advantage as they will only be used to sparring with gloves.
Go on champ… youll moider tha bums…[/QUOTE]
How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230990]How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?[/QUOTE]
You dont. you only assume it does
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230990]How do you think I know that gloved training messes up the distancing and timing model of the brain?[/QUOTE]
because you’re repeating some mumbo jumbo rhetoric that you have swallowed hook line and sinker
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1231003]because you’re repeating some mumbo jumbo rhetoric that you have swallowed hook line and sinker[/QUOTE]
This is what you are doing. I am using evidence
[QUOTE=guy b.;1230858]It is probably the truest post you have read in a while, although you obviously don’t realise it. Training in gloves is a good idea if you are going to fight in gloves. Not if you are not. I don’t wear padded gloves most of the time. Do you?[/QUOTE]
there was nothing true in your post at all - absolutely nothing. Your comment here about training in gloves is so ridiculous it is hard to believe that you genuinely believe it. By the same logic there is no point using a jong, wall bag, focus mitts, heavy bag or any other piece of training equipment because only hitting people is really hitting people and unless you are going to fight a jong why use it?.
I train regularly mostly without gloves for drills, forms, chi sao and light application work but to pressure test what we do I wear 6oz mma gloves and my partner will wear any protective equipment we feel necessary for the level of contact such as full face headguard, shin protection, box etc For your education the distancing, timing and power generation is no different when wearing 6oz mma gloves than it is with bare hands. the only reason for wearing the gloves is to limit the damage caused to the training partner and to limit damage to hands from the hard parts of face grills on the head guards when they are in use.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1231004]This is what you are doing. I am using evidence[/QUOTE]
you haven’t presented any evidence and you won’t be able to because you are talking tosh. I am basing my POV on regular experience of both gloved and ungloved training as I believe are others here. Do you even have any idea of what 6oz mm gloves are? or what it feels like to wear them?