Anti-striking

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Excellent! I always wondered why more people don’t use this.

We often call this kind of move ‘KaoShou’ ‘to wear handcuffs’ because it is like having your hands shackled together (not to actually fight in handcuffs).

It is more common to use the same strategy but one hand holding the wrist of the other (the golden lock ‘JinSuo’, also the 7 star position in SongShan). There are two major orientations this can be done with and you can change between them. This transformation is called the Fanzi Quan.

Keeping with this displayed technique it is VERY powerful to strike with. Simply hit the opponent straight in the face with your double fist. It hurts the knuckles only a bit but it is well enough distributed and it really really hurts the opponent when ungloved (Yes, I have been hit with it, it really pushes you back). Also hammering, thumping direct to the face. The great thing is if the opponent is only guarding with one arm you can punch through it with this. Also try switching to horizontal orientation.

If you use the classic ‘JinSuo’ technique described above there are a lot more changes possible. You can maintain friction and suddenly open your hands (Wusong breaks manicles) forming a VERY powerful strike (Dan Bian - ‘To shoulder the whip’). In Shaolin this is the classic ‘QiXing - Dan Bian’ combination that is the signature of the Song Mountian Shaolin form.

It takes a human about 1/2 a second to make a decision, but only 1/5th to react. If you have to decide ‘block left or right’ you will never block anything. If you simply make your arms into a shield then you only have to react ‘forwards!’ rather than attempt a deflection. This method of blocking can actually work very well.

This method of blocking is to use a shield. There are a collection of ‘shields’ with the arms. Though with all of them, you must have a motive to enter, as they cannot deflect for a long time. If someone attacks the body, simply hit directly to their face with the shield itself, they cannot easily block it with just one hand. Especially as this can be powerful from the shortest range.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1265443]If you have been thrown down on the ground with a rock directly under your liver/spleen/kidneys 200 times daily, body shots should not bother you too much. .[/QUOTE]

fixed that for you

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1265444]Those are good suggestions. IMO, the hook punch (or haymaker) are too easy to get arm wrapped.

It’s easier to

  • catch a roundhouse kick than to catch a front kick.
  • wrap a hook punch than to wrap a jab or cross.

The reason is simple. Both roundhouse kick and hook (or haymaker) are committed and you can predict the incoming path.[/QUOTE]

I agree, especially on the front kick versus round kick. But, by diversifying what the person is drilling against, even if you use chops for circular attacks instead of hook, the person doing the drill doesn’t stay static, assuming high strikes coming straight in.

I agree to some extent with Wenshu, for some people, its important to consider body shots- for example, I’m pretty tall, people are going to go for my body to try to open up my head. If I’m fighting a shorter person, the reverse, I’ll go for the head to open up the body. A good targeted strike hits on a smaller surface than a breakfall, so if someone works their power, and gets in close enough, it’s sometimes not an issue of whether it is painful, but how much it injures. Also, I can take blows, but I tend to favor making sure I can evade or control them, just in case they’re holding a knife of something like that.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1265440]Besides “big fist” and “double spears”, I’m also working on “hook” (connect my body with my opponent’s body ASAP). Many years ago, a good friend of mine said, “If I keep moving back away from you, what can you do to me?” His question had bothered me for quite some time.[/quote]

Isn’t it funny how one little scenario or statement sticks with you until you have to solve it? Fun puzzles.

In the past I used to believe that I can use kick and punch to set up a throw. Now I believe I have to use kick and punch to set up a “clinch”.

Makes sense.

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The big fist is like the Chinese weapon (Jian). It’s used to break weapon such as knife or sword. There is no way that any knife or sword can hurt (Jian).

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/5219/jiany.jpg

The main purpose of the “big fist wedged arms” is like the “giant drill machine”, no matter what your opponent may do to you, you always use your “drill head” to drill through your opponent’s guard.

giant_drill_machine.jpg
giant_drill_machine.jpg240×240 41.3 KB

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1265540]The big fist is like the Chinese weapon (Jian). It’s used to break weapon such as knife or sword. There is no way that any knife or sword can hurt (Jian).

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/5219/jiany.jpg

The main purpose of the “big fist wedged arms” is like the “giant drill machine”, no matter what your opponent may do to you, you always use your “drill head” to drill through your opponent’s guard.

[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying that the concept is a problem. What I’m saying is that, if faced with an opponent doing this (big hands, et al), one must use feints and strikes to draw the guard away, and then take advantage of the openings (if one wants to continue striking). So to train this sort of defense, it seems like a good idea to train it against a diversity of techniques, so that it is fluid and does not count on being able to soak up certain blows or have certain responses.

For example, in relation to the hook, you mentioned how the hook is easy enough to wrap up and throw when someone throws it. But, if someone fakes that hook to draw that response, this may break the defense and leave an opening.

My point wasn’t that there is a weakness to the method you are talking about, but that, by training against a broad array of techniques with it, I think using it would become more effective. Since the trainee, in using this method in sparring and fighting, would definitely be facing people trying to pick apart this defense by way of adding in circular attacks, feints, draws, and kicks, these could be incorporated into the training.

Even if we think this attack is not our favorite because of its weaknesses, those weaknesses can be used as a lure to cause the person using big hands to break their defense in order to take advantage of the weakness. If the weakness is only bait, then it is strength.

Just my thought. It would be interesting to practice these drills where occasionally, feints were added. Occasionally kicks were added. That way, they get pressure tested, instead of counting on weathering a blow, which sometimes is good, but against some people, may mean weathering a blow from someone really strong at that blow.

The key with is that it must be in position to do its work. Same with big hands, etc. To beat them, one way is forcing them out of position and striking the opening. Thus, it seems to me that to train expertise in this defense is to train expertise in reading the opponent and being able to know when to wedge, and when not to take the bait, so that the is always in position, but without ignoring attacks that the defense is not designed to deal with, even if many times these attacks are not highly effective, sometimes they will be. We should choose when to count on iron body, not have no recourse but it.

Again, this is not criticism of the technique, I like the ideas and I’m trying to wrap my head around them and trouble shoot their practice for myself. This relates heavily to ideas of blending the distance from striking to throwing, so it’s a very interesting topic to me.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1265625]feints were added. Occasionally kicks were added. [/QUOTE]
Agree with what you have suggested, I’ll add “kicking” and “fake punch” into my Sunday class training tomorrow. May be shot some more clips for discussion.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1265669]Agree with what you have suggested, I’ll add “kicking” and “fake punch” into my Sunday class training tomorrow. May be shot some more clips for discussion.[/QUOTE]

Cool! I was trying to think yesterday how, if I was trying to do the same sort of tactic, I would approach dealing with straight kicks without it affecting the overall goals. Interesting stuff.

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So, I’ve decided to have some fun with this concept.

I tend to do an hour of shadow boxing in the mornings, I try to incorporate new stuff in that time, and I got thinking about this thread as I was deciding what I wanted to focus on next week. I’m going to mess around with ideas related to this, probably not exactly the same, but nonetheless.

So:

  1. One of the things I want to use a lot of is slips, so some focus on that
  2. To minimize the effects of feints, I want to train draws to entice certain attacks
  3. I probably won’t join hands together when doing the big fist, but a similar idea.
  4. I don’t intend to hold the big fists, but to fluidly adopt and abandon them, so that my draws will look enticing, will draw the right attacks, which I can then wedge and close with.
  5. The focus for me will be this drawing, evasion, ending with wedging or deflecting with big hands and entering.

I’ll entrain this in shadow boxing, at some point I’ll work it with a partner and see how it goes…

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Imho

I like the way you presented the Big Fist strategy and finishing with throw. However, I think the Big Fist is too restricted, telegraphs and vulnerable. I agree with most everything Faux Newbie has mentioned. I would not want to be kicked with strong low kicks or punched in the liver. I think clasping your hands would make footwork slower. It would give the opponent a chance to control two hands with one (parry, deflect, trap, slip or side step) and strike with the other. I believe your double spears (separated hands) would be more effective as your bridge or reach to get head control will be longer and less restrictive.

The opponent in your videos is too compliant, to tell how effective the Big Fist is or isn’t. I would like to see an opponent that moves (back, lateral, pivot) and doesn’t leave his arm out to be countered and kicks.

Here is a demonstration of getting head control and throw, against a non-compliant opponent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBoyekp_ZY @ 3:40. At 4:45 opponent uses straight punches to stop bullrush. Ronda slips, parrys, & reaches to get head control and takes down.

I like this demonstration because it shows the techniques, timing, and distance Ronda has to use, against a resisting opponent, in order to get a successful take down. Sometimes, it’s not easy to get head control with a resisting opponent (moves, circles, punches, kicks). I think self-defense techniques should be pressure tested and drilled in sparring or performed in competition.

Here is more grappling (throws, takedowns) analysis in MMA of Ronda vs Tate:

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/12/31/5257838/ufc-168-judo-chops-of-ronda-rousey-part-i-the-counter-uchi-mata

http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1u2bum/round_1_analysis_of_rousey_vs_tate_ufc_168/

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[QUOTE=intercept8;1267021]I like the way you presented the Big Fist strategy and finishing with throw. However, I think the Big Fist is too restricted, telegraphs and vulnerable. I agree with most everything Faux Newbie has mentioned. I would not want to be kicked with strong low kicks or punched in the liver. I think clasping your hands would make footwork slower. It would give the opponent a chance to control two hands with one (parry, deflect, trap, slip or side step) and strike with the other. I believe your double spears (separated hands) would be more effective as your bridge or reach to get head control will be longer and less restrictive.[/quote]

Judging by what YKW said, big spears is a separate thing. He showed one video where the hands weren’t held together, but were used the same as big fists. I don’t think that is big spears, big spears is something he’s going to show next.

The opponent in your videos is too compliant, to tell how effective the Big Fist is or isnt. I would like to see an opponent that moves (back, lateral, pivot) and doesnt leave his arm out to be countered and kicks.

They weren’t leaving their fists out that much, not like typical apps demos. Anything less than full speed, even in mma, means withdrawal is slower.

Here is a demonstration of getting head control and throw, against a non-compliant opponent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBoyekp_ZY @ 3:40. At 4:45 opponent uses straight punches to stop bullrush. Ronda slips, parrys, & reaches to get head control and takes down.

I like this demonstration because it shows the techniques, timing, and distance Ronda has to use, against a resisting opponent, in order to get a successful take down. Sometimes, its not easy to get head control with a resisting opponent (moves, circles, punches, kicks). I think self-defense techniques should be pressure tested and drilled in sparring or performed in competition.

I always feel “…or in competition” is the last resort, “…or in sparring” is the second to last. Drilling ahead is what the best seem to do a lot of.

In fairness, YKW is working a very specific thing, and obviously open to input, so adding in variables, like in boxing and mma, is fine in increments.

I think one place that you and YKW may disagree is in the idea that only that which is already in mma and full contact venues is what works. MMA history suggests this is not true- things have consistently been added that are not new to martial arts, but newly refined for mma (a point I suspect you would agree with). I think one place you and YKW agree is that rational formats for training and testing any new thing is desirable, instead of being stuck assuming they work or don’t.

In the ring is, if anything, a final lab, it is not the initial lab. One needs to entrain and refine before then, then test in drills, then test against increasingly realistic resistance.

The compliance I suspect you see has, I think, more to do with lack of gloves than aikido-like compliance. Even and especially pro fighters would really not look forward to just cold ****ing someone who is just training with bare knuckles, with a few sociopathic exceptions (not particular to mma- as martial artists, we’re stuck dealing with more of them in general, I feel.) Without gloves, striking in training is even more lacking in depth.

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Additionally, clasping the hands would not slow footwork at all, but I do think one would need to have to train separating them well, something YKW, who has thought more about this than I, may well have dealt with.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1267026]things have consistently been added that are not new to martial arts, but newly refined for mma …[/QUOTE]

This is very true. I had asked my guys to test “headlock against double neck ties” in local MMA gyms. The result came out as I expected. When you put “double neck ties” on your opponent, if your opponent uses “headlock” to warp your head along with both of your arms inside, it can disable both of your arms at that moment. It’s a such uncomfortable feeling. I’m sure we will see this used in UFC one of these days when people are willing to invest training time to develop a strong headlock.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1267026]
I always feel “…or in competition” is the last resort, “…or in sparring” is the second to last. Drilling ahead is what the best seem to do a lot of.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of your statements. In professional competition, non-compliant opponents are moving defensively and offensively. I can study which techniques they use successfully. Then, I can take these techniques and first shadowbox, drill them (as realistically as possible), & spar with them. Then, hopefully use them in my own self-defense.

[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1267026]
In fairness, YKW is working a very specific thing, and obviously open to input, so adding in variables, like in boxing and mma, is fine in increments.[/QUOTE]

I apologize. I took YKWs statement (from the other thread), I would like to be the “bridge” between the striking art and the throwing art, too general. Forgetting he already had a specific list of entry techniques in mind. I thought I was adding something, but digressed from YKWs original list.

[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1267026]
I think one place that you and YKW may disagree is in the idea that only that which is already in mma and full contact venues is what works.[/QUOTE]

I realize there may be effective techniques (including YKW’s, “headlock against double neck ties”), yet to be used in MMA competitions. Also, not all techniques in the closed cage are practical for the street.

There are professional judoka in MMA and Muay Thai fighters that drill, practice, and strategize getting from the kicking range, to punching, to the grappling range. Todays technology (thanks to Youtube) allows me to view & analyze high level matches. I can leverage the top fighters and trainers experience by studying what works successfully for them in a dynamic environment and see if I can adapt any techniques (including timing, rhythm, distance) in my own self-defense.

When I see demonstrations done with stationary opponents, not retracting their punches, I question their effectiveness in a real situation (not referring to YKWs). These techniques may work. However, the setup, positioning, timing, distance, angle, rhythm, etc . . . may need to be altered. The effectiveness of techniques can be improved by practicing (drilling) in a more realistic environment. I rather spend time training techniques that I have seen work successfully in a hostile environment.

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[QUOTE=intercept8;1267325] When I see demonstrations done with stationary opponents, not retracting their punches, I question their effectiveness in a real situation (not referring to YKWs).[/QUOTE]
That’s a valid concern.

The only problem is if you let your opponent to attack your first, you may put too much training dependency on your opponent. Your opponent can attack you in infinite number of ways. You just can’t simulate all the situations. In my personal training, I like to attack first.

I will also drill when my opponent starts his attack by punching and kicking too. But that’s not the major part of my training. If my opponent commits his attack and charges in in full speed and full power, all I need to do is to raise my kick and let my opponent to run into my kick. I don’t have to worry about “entry footwork”, “safety concern during entry”. I don’t like to define my skill against what my opponent will do to me. Instead, I like to define my skill as what i can do to my opponent. I can’t always assume that i can borrow my opponent’s commitment by “luck”. When I can force my opponent to make certain commitment, that’s my skill and that’s not my “luck”.

In the following clip, his opponent attacks with jab and cross, he used “double spears” strategy to deflect his opponent’s punch and then enter with “under hook leg spring”.

//youtu.be/HtIXgZu9OcQ

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This may be a more likely response from an experienced counter striker, where the “big fist” would be successful in a finishing throw. Also, it doesn’t rely on timing an outstretched arm.

The big fist is thrown. The experienced orthodox striker, seeing it is slow and such a short range punch will not be threatened and not step back. He will slip to his left and attempt a liver shot to the body. The “big fister” having bridged the gap and entered the grappling range takes a step to his right to avoid the liver shot, but close enough to smother both hands. If the guard is in the way, the “big fister” pulls the guard down (jut sao), keeping the striker in close range. Then, grabs the head control and finishes the throw.

The “big fister” is successful by attacking by drawing (ABD) with “big fist” and countering the counter with jut sao, head control, and throw; attacking by combination (ABC). This can be tested, adjusted, drilled and refined. This is only one possible scenario.

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[QUOTE=intercept8;1267325]I agree with most of your statements. In professional competition, non-compliant opponents are moving defensively and offensively. I can study which techniques they use successfully. Then, I can take these techniques and first shadowbox, drill them (as realistically as possible), & spar with them. Then, hopefully use them in my own self-defense.[/quote]

I misunderstood your original statement. I totally agree on using what occurs in fighting and sparring to inform what you train.

I apologize. I took YKW’s statement (from the other thread), “I would like to be the “bridge” between the striking art and the throwing art,” too general. Forgetting he already had a specific list of entry techniques in mind. I thought I was adding something, but digressed from YKW’s original list.

I was more stating that training what we’re doing to see if some elements may prove useful that aren’t in common use is beneficial. I also agree that training what is in use has value, especially because it is often the case that, if I train a move with similarities to a move in common usage, I can learn more about what I do, and why the approach might be a little different.

When I see demonstrations done with stationary opponents, not retracting their punches, I question their effectiveness in a real situation (not referring to YKW’s). These techniques may work. However, the setup, positioning, timing, distance, angle, rhythm, etc . . . may need to be altered. The effectiveness of techniques can be improved by practicing (drilling) in a more realistic environment. I rather spend time training techniques that I have seen work successfully in a hostile environment.

Usually, I find moves end up altered to make them work for the stationary opponents in ways that take away from the move. For example, most throws work better in a dynamic situation (even if they may be harder to pull off), because there’s a lot more momentum to work with. That said, experimenting is something I think all lifelong martial artists do, it just ends up happening. Some of the experiments are just color, some end up in the repertoire of the practitioner as bread and butter.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1267374]That’s a valid concern.

The only problem is if you let your opponent to attack your first, you may put too much training dependency on your opponent. Your opponent can attack you in infinite number of ways. You just can’t simulate all the situations. In my personal training, I like to attack first. [/QUOTE]

How I view this is, it is important to mount offenses as you say, but, in closing and in striking, it’s also important to learn to read people, just as you might read the intent of someone trying to throw you in clinch, but in the longer range, sight is a huge factor. I wouldn’t rely on being able to read everyone, just as I wouldn’t rely on any one offense.

Also, although there are countless things an opponent can do, and training to read each one is impractical, there’s only so many ways they can step, and learning to read that and knowing how that narrows their options and yours is helpful. If I’m in southpaw and my opponent is on orthodox stance, I know to watch less for the jab and more for the cross, and if he steps inside, I know he’s open to my cross, and if he steps outside, I’m open to his.

Relative footwork makes the options much smaller.

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Yoshihiro Akiyama (mentioned in my other post) a judoka in MMA is doing a throw. This is not the exact setup or throw. However, you may find something useful for this or other throws.

Akiyama throws a left, slow, lazy jab drawing a leaning, counter right cross from Shields. Akiyama slips the right cross (weight on back foot, head off center), leaving his jab out to get underhook on Shields right arm. Then, Akiyama gets correct position and completes the throw.

Here is a drill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ7C7AoFJMY

I would drill this throw moving around. Goals of drill would be to start jab at correct distance and practice the right speed of the punch in order to draw the opponent in, leaning with momentum going forward.

In order for a successful throw, correct timing, speed, rhythm, distance, position, and weight shift are important to get the opponent to react without him knowing what your intentions are, avoiding his punch and completing the throw. IMHO, realistic drills (movement, retraction of punches, etc . . .) are important to build these skills.

In general, punching should be practiced at various speeds, rhythms, and combinations. Punches can be used for setting up other techniques (feints), occupying the center creating defense or offense. Punches can vary in speed and power to conserve energy, while keeping the opponent guessing at your intentions. An outstretched lead hand can be used to get head, hand or body control and prevent attacks.

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I think one of the big things about practicing against striking is that, when using gloves, training partners are more likely to use realistic penetration. Without gloves, people tend to seek to barely make contact, not step with the strike to have deep penetration like in the clip above. For a good thrower/takedown artist, it’s really important, I think, to be able to train against that level of penetration because you are 1) closer to the range that actually could KO you, and 2) you are much closer for throwing and takedowns. Greater risk=greater benefit for the thrower.

I think this is one thing that you are alluding to, correct, intercept8?